I’m making a bold prediction: this year, the bill will pass to allow state-permitted individuals to carry on Virginia’s public campuses; next week, we will be making the case for it.
November 9 – 14 is Defense Education Week, hosted by Students for Concealed Carry on Campus at colleges across the country, where the issue will be brought forward as we advocate for self-defense rights on campus. The argument is simple: there are no grounds to deny the right to carry on campus lawfully and responsibly for the purpose of self-defense.
Campus is not immune to crime, and students, faculty, and staff who have permits should have the choice to carry while on campus, with their firearm being a last resort should their lives be endangered. Such permitted individuals must be 21, have had a background check, and have received training, some of the best measures in the country to ensure responsibility when carrying.
On Monday, Philip Van Cleave, President of the Virginia gun-rights group VCDL, will be speaking at 7 p.m. in McBryde 129 along with representatives of VT’s SCCC chapter. The questions on the table are: What is the case for concealed carry on campus? Is this just about April 16? Following the talks, a forum will be held to answer questions and concerns.
This is the time to engage if you support the cause, are unsure, or disagree with the arguments. We welcome dissenters just as much as supporters, as we believe our case is strong and well researched. For some this may be a sensitive, personal, and emotional issue, but we hope to have some civil dialogue to address concerned individuals. As well, gun owners and gun-rights advocates who are unsure about their position with concealed carry on campus are encouraged to attend.
Over the rest of the week, we will be exploring related questions like: Has anyone ever used their firearm in self-defense? Who actually carries a gun? What kind of training is ideal? What is legal and illegal? Would everyone carry if the law were passed?
We hope you join us while we make the case next week. Check www.sccc.org.vt.edu for a full list of speakers and special events!
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Well said, there are no reasons, just emotional arguments and speculation. Looking forward to seeing PVC's speech.
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Please someone explain to me the NEED to carry concealed on campus? Is it really about defense? I have looked at the VA TECH police reports and I see no historical reason for guns on campus: http://www.police.vt.edu/VTPDnew/dailycrimelog08.htm
This area is not high crime nor is it a violent area.
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Wow.. surprised you responded, Jeff, when this is right in the article for Monday's event:
"The questions on the table are: What is the case for concealed carry on campus? Is this just about April 16?"
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"This area is not high crime nor is it a violent area."
In addition to what Jeff said, you might also note that when a place becomes "violent" it's already too late to talk about whether or not there's a need for self-defense. Only the living can have that discussion, after the victims' lives are lost.
That's why this is a proactive movement, not reactive.
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The "needs" argument does not apply to civil rights..
How would you like someone to say, you don't really "need" a computer to exercise the first amendment, heck, you don't "need" a radio or tv either...
Be very carfull when using frivolus arguments against the US Bill of Rights, you may find people you don't agree with using the same arguments against the rest of the document.
And why not? If it applies to the 2nd, it should apply to ALL of them.
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Please someone explain to me the NEED to speak freely, worship as one chooses or have due process.
Oh - was it only the right guaranteed by the Second Amendment for which you demand a justification?
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And people like Cho know that. I am in school now, 6 years in the Military Police and 5 years in Law Enforcement. I have a conceled carry permit and I cannot have my gun in my gun vault locked in my car. It is better to have your gun and not need it than to need it and not have it. 6 concealed carry permit holderrs were among the dead at Va Tech that day. I will tale 1:6 odds rather than 1:0 any day. Criminals want the unarmed not the armed.
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Yes for carry on campus! Can't wait for 1 or 2 gun carrying students get drunk, get mad and go on a shooting spree! Then of course all the other drunk gun carrying student start firing back. Maybe at a football game and 100s of bystanders are shot. Hey, its only collateral damage, shut up.
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The main problem with that statement is that it doesn't happen. There is nothing to stop college age students from carrying off campus and off campus they can just as easily get drunk. However, that doesn't happen and we don't see shootouts because people who conceal carry and responsible gun owners. People can right now conceal carry on main street and you don't see Sharkys being shot up so please learn a thing or two before you post again.
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Typical anti-gun, emotional, "what if" hysteria. Concealed carry is already legal off campus, which is where the majority students live, eat and make merry. Have drunk gun-carrying students gone on any shooting sprees? No. Can you name any place in Virginia where such a scenario has taken place? No. Can you name a single place in the whole US that allows concealed carry where CCW holders have gone on drunken shooting sprees? No. The only shooting spree I know about at Tech occurred on campus. You know, where guns are not allowed.
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If someone's not afraid to go to Wal*Mart or the mall, they should not be afraid to have -licensed- people carry on campus. You're around armed citizens all the time, and somehow manage to survive. What is sacred about the campus that makes it any different?
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Not much difference, but because there are dependents (17-18) in classrooms and living on campus the university assumes more liability for their safety. Universities (including Liberty) talk to their lawyers & insurance people before they do anything. Of course, guns would have to be permitted in dorms too. Yes, I know most 21 year old CC holders live off campus and are responsible. But for an individual CC holder, its difficult to get personal umbrella liability insurance that covers a justified CC defensive incident off your own property (NRA ~$250K). The Castle Doctrine & Stand Your Ground clause (VA doesn't have yet) will protect you from civil actions from the perp but not from claims from bystanders. Since few CC holders have $1-20 million worth of coverage (VT civil lawsuits), the university would "unofficially" be covering CC holders actions on campus. So let the taxpayers decide...
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Except that we are talking about a right we have guaranteed by the United States Constitution. The founding fathers have decided it for us.
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Well, tell that to Justice Scalia who has essentially left it to the states to decide: "It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.....The court's opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings..."
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Scalia is an activist judge that legislates from the bench what can I say. If you look at the Constitution you can clearly see that it is illegal to prohibit guns. Ol' Scalia though had to put his opinion in because the only oversight he has is the icy scythe of death.
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Scalia legislates from the bench? He's a textualist, which precludes him from doing anything but ruling on the letter of the written law. He abhors legislating from the bench. His opinion is vague, but as I read it, it says that it's unreasonable to expect that you'll be allowed to carry an Uzi legally into a bank or courthouse, not that it's unreasonable to expect the ability to carry a pistol legally in a general public area. In any case, remember that VA currently says nothing about restricting concealed carry on public college campuses. Because of that, lawsuits are more likely to arise because VT prevents its community from carrying in spite of state law.
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Haha, what a joke. This is one of the most pathetic articles I have ever seen. If you want another Virginia Tech massacre, go for it. If this bill passes and there is another massacre, you guys had it coming.
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Jim -
The policies in place at VT stop ONLY the law-abiding citizens, not criminals or psychos hell-bent on carrying out a massacre. This bill does not give psychos permission to shoot up the campus, but it does give law-abiding citizens the right to protect themselves from criminals. Why don't you come to some of the events this week, express your concerns, and get some of your questions answered?
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anne f said,
"Like Fort Hood, right?"
Yes, exactly. Glad you saw that. Ft Hood is like all other military installations where firearms are forbidden other than at the ranges and for police officers. Just like VT, just like almost all the mass shootings that have ever happened. It makes it rather convenient for the bad guy to know there won't be anyone able to shoot back for a while and the bad guy will be able to rack up quite the body count before any police stop him or her.
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Hello! I'm history, I don't believe we've met.
If we met, I could tell you that all of the mass shootings in history have been in "gun-free zones". Also, in the 90's, paranoid anti-gun organizations made the same "blood in the streets" arguments about national concealed carry permits, and have been proven wrong. Finally, you may notice that the VT "massacre" only was one because no one else was armed to stop him. The places where guns are allowed often end with little to no fatalities, meaning that the "massacres" were avoided.
But why bother learning anything from me!
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Yes, Anne, like Fort Hood.
Oh, I get it now! You didn't know that military bases are gun free zones!
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@AnneF.
Yes, actually. *Exactly* like Fort Hood. Thank you for pointing that out.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Fort+Hood+gun+free+zone
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I'm unable to find how to respond to a specific comment; this is addressed to "anne f." who at 0734 responded to "History": "If we met, I could tell you that all of the mass shootings in history have been in "gun-free zones". Like Fort Hood, right?"
Exactly like Ft. Hood, Anne. Soldiers on post, except for MPs and when firearms are required for occasions such as parades or firing at the range under supervision are not allowed to carry or possess on post. Ft. Hood is a gun-free zone precisely as is New York City. "History" has learned from history; so should you.
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Yes Anne. The only people allowed to carry guns (while not engaged in training) are the military police . The victims of the shooting would have all been unarmed.
It's good that you understand the concept at work and were able to correctly identify how gun-free zones are abused by mass murderers.
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I apologize. From the early reports of bystanders being shot by 'friendly fire' I assumed that there were multiple armed people on the scene.
That is fascinating that the US Army, which spends a lot of time training with guns, doesn't want people carrying them on bases. Why is that?
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There is no reason for soldiers to carry weapons all the time. We did in Iraq, of course, but we don't in garrison Stateside.
Incidentally, I think you'd be surprised how little time is actually spent training with weapons.
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Anne: "That is fascinating that the US Army, which spends a lot of time training with guns, doesn't want people carrying them on bases. Why is that?"
That is an excellent question and I certainly don't know the answer. However, my understanding is that soldiers on military bases were armed until 9/11, after which the powers that be determined that universal defenselessness was better. The results are predictable and repeatable. I think this decision was the politically correct knee-jerk response to ban weapons when bad things happen.
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This is untrue. I have been in the Army since well before 9/11 and we did not carry weapons except when training, like on a rifle range. I asked others in my unit who were in long before I was and nobody can remember a time when soldiers carried weapons in a garrison environment.
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"This is untrue. I have been in the Army since well before 9/11 and we did not carry weapons except when training, like on a rifle range. I asked others in my unit who were in long before I was and nobody can remember a time when soldiers carried weapons in a garrison environment."
My information is from folks who served during the Vietnam War. They said they routinely carried weapons in garrison. Perhaps they were mistaken.
If not, when did the transition occur?
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Jim, let me ask at work. We have a couple of retired sergeants major who were in then. They might know. I'll get back to you.
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Jim, I asked around and nobody, including one retired sergeant major who served in Korea, can corroborate that soldiers ever carried weapons around in garrison. Carrying them has always been reserved for some kind of training or the occasional ceremonial occasion, the latter not involving live ammunition.
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Thanks Hokie vet and Jim in Houston for the information. I'll be interested to see what kind of criticism Fort Hood gets in the coming weeks for being a 'gun-free zone.'
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Not allowing soldiers to carry firearms was unofficial policy until 1993, when Clinton signed it into law along with the assault weapons ban.
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Minor correction from a 30 year military retiree. Before 1975, most military bases had regulations requiring personal weapons be stored in the base armory. They could be checked out for use but were not supposed to be kept in autos or quarters. Some bases may have modified this requirement but I'll bet most haven't. But should!!
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Good article, Ken. And good efforts there in Virginia. I too agree with you ... the time is coming when states will repeal the prohibitions of effective defense on campuses. I am confident in this because of the trends I see. When for years the reaction of ever-more restrictive gun control was found to have no effect on mass murders, people have begun to realize that it's time to quit prohibiting people's right to defense, and to stop really bad people as fast as they can.
Next year, we will hear from the Supreme Court that the right to arms is fundamental, subject to strict scrutiny, and also, that college campuses are not the "sensitive places" where gun bans might pass scrutiny, such as airplanes, courtrooms, or prisons.
Keep up the good work. You are gaining some serious ground! Freedom will prevail ... it must.
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Man, I know we should "move on with our lives", but we've already forgotten about 4/16? Morva? Caldwell fields? The stabbings in 2006? Stabbing death in 2008?
Besides that, in a free society, one does not have to "justify a need" to exercise a right. If that weren't true, I could ask you why do you need to be able to express your view here?
And yes, it is really about self-defense.
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"If we met, I could tell you that all of the mass shootings in history have been in "gun-free zones"."
Like Fort Hood, right?
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And Cho got his guns completely legally, so the argument that only good law-abiding citizens will be able to get the guns is a moot point.
Other then (than? I suck at those two :-D) I could careless about this because I will be gone in December anyway.
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Criminals will always be able to get guns Cho would have bought them illegally if he had to. The problem with Cho is a failure of the doctors to identify an issue and prevent him from legally buying guns. As a result no gun control measure would have stopped Cho because he on paper was no different than you or me.
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Cho DID NOT buy his guns legally. He had disqualifying marks on his record from his mental defective ruling in court. The fact that they didn't show up on the background check doesn't make the purchase legal. It's similar to buying alcohol under 21 just because the cashier doesn't card you. Still illegal, you just didn't get caught.
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sounds like the system failed us again. how can we ever be safe if the system can't even protect us?
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Exactly. That is part of the point. Actively choosing to take measures toward self-defense is the most effective way to protect yourself. "The system" is only meant to delineate your rights, and to prosecute those who violate them. It is not designed to protect you instantaneously when someone decides to break the law and assault you.
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OK, explain to me how shooting the guy beheading the girl is "self defense"? Explain how you know specifically that you are to be his next victim and you are justified in shooting him to "protect yourself" because you have the means to do so.
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The right to self-defense also includes defense of others. Would you stand idly by while one person was beating the crap out of another? From your comments, I suspect so. Another person that "doesn't want to get involved." "It's not my business." I'd bet if you were the one being "beheaded" you'd be praying for someone to "get involved".
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Joe Hokie - explain how you know specifically that you are NOT going to be his next victim. The best option for anyone in that situation is to run if they have the chance, but if you were somehow unable to do that, and he turned toward you with the knife after having cut someone's head off, you are right to assume that he has no regard for human life, and may very well target you next. If you were unable to get away from the situation, what would you do? "Play dead"? That doesn't work in this scenario...
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Joe, just so you understand, in Texas (and most other states) you can use force when threatened with imminent death or grievous bodily harm. Force is justified whether this threat is against yourself or against others. Once the threat has stopped, you may no longer use force. Note that if the bad guy dies, it is still considered a homicide. If you used force to defend yourself in an altercation that you started or aggravated, you get to go to jail.
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What is the problem with allowing those with self-control to defend themselves from those who don't?
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This is exactly the sort of discussion we need tonight. Before we can constructively debate the issue, everyone needs to have a common, factual understanding of the current laws that govern concealed carry. It is clear that we have not achieved that, and therefore more time must be spent now trying to dispell myths before we may move forward to discuss actual philosophies behind both sides of the issue. Hopefully we get a step closer to establishing this common factual basis at this event.
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Sounds like a plan.
Perhaps someone can explain the laws governing the use of force. That will help put everyone on the same level.
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It is not against the law to carry on campus except at VCU.
Since I am not a student, I have not signed a contract with Virginia Tech. I may freely carry concealed on campus. The only restrictions that I have regarding carry on campus are:
1) VCU (banned by law)
2) I can be asked to leave. If I refuse to leave, the police may charge me with trespassing.
That's it. The rest of it is based upon university policy. Frankly, students should be carrying and just not worry about getting expelled.
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Charge you with trespassing on public property?
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We obviously believe in self defense, but wouldn't a more appropiate means of self defense be much better that was NOT lethal, such as a Taser or Pepper Spray? Too many people go nuts when they get a handgun in their hands and go on a rampage!
Self Defense Products Of Florida
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None of the people I know with handguns and/or concealed carry permits "go nuts when they get a handgun in their hands." Similarly, statistics show that concealed carry permit holders are less likely to be arrested for violent or nonviolent crimes. (Source: http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba324 - Licensees were 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public - 127 per 100,000 population versus 730 per 100,000. Licensees were 14 times less likely to be arrested for nonviolent offenses than the general public - 386 per 100,000 population versus 5,212 per 100,000. Further, the general public is 1.4 times more likely to be arrested for murder than licensees, and no licensee had been arrested for negligent manslaughter.)
Additionally, and more importantly, there is no assurance that criminals will abide this non-lethal standard (and Tech policies do not permit you to carry these other non-lethal, self-defense products, last I checked). By all means, choose whichever products you prefer for self-defense, but provide others with that same courtesy.
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Ken's radar has been off in the past.
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As has yours!
"When concealed carry permits are allowed, there will be blood in the streets!"
Fail.
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Well, impersonators galore! I'm sure Peter Hamm didn't really post here, and whoever tried to impersonate me got the quote wrong. But, effort appreciated and the point is well-taken.
Courtney, below me - every time a permit holder takes a step, Peter is right there yelling "danger!" to everyone ahead. Yet, nothing ever happens.
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Peter, will you please explain to us when your radar has EVER been on?! You said a few years ago that people would be in danger in the VA legislature because they allow concealed handgun permit holders to carry there - how many murders have you seen since then?!
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The question should be twofold. For starters, will allowing carry on campus lead to a dramatic increase in gun ownership and/or permit applications? I believe that it would not. Therefore, we are talking about the same law-abiding individuals who don't abuse their permit privileges elsewhere. Next up, does the campus environment (demographics, population density, classroom setting, etc.) raise any unique, verifiable concerns that do not exist elsewhere that people are currently allowed to carry? I'd like to see evidence if it does. This means that, even in the statistically unlikely event that a permit holder "goes bad," he/she would only be more dangerous if guns are allowed on campus if such an occurrence happens instantaneously and as a direct result of the school environment at that instant. Since most of the anecdotal evidence I've seen suggests that those who don't have permits and commit violent offenses, particularly on college campuses, do not act on impulse, I find this possibility to be among the rarest I could imagine.
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I don't dispute that CC holders have passed a test (although in some cases, simply via a Web-based course) and that a judge has granted the permit. I do dispute that all CC holders are well trained in safe gun handling. Furthermore, there is *zero* similarity between learning to fire a weapon on a range and being in combat, just ask any combat veteran. Being in a classroom (or any room) with bullets flying around has no similarity to a range. So to assume that CC holders would be able to "defend themselves" and not harm others in the process is simply absurd; there is NO justification for endangering others. I guarantee that unless you've been in combat anyone would be completely unprepared and unable to accurately return fire. Im incredulous that this subject has even been considered. Come talk to me after youve been down range with incoming.
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Chris: you did just fine until you got here: ". So to assume that CC holders would be able to "defend themselves" and not harm others in the process is simply absurd; there is NO justification for endangering others. I guarantee that unless you've been in combat anyone would be completely unprepared and unable to accurately return fire. Im incredulous that this subject has even been considered. Come talk to me after youve been down range with incoming. "
The simple fact is that no matter how unprepared you deem the competence of CC holders to be, they IN REAL LIFE defend themselves just fine with a "collateral damage" percentage well below the cops.
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sorry, this comment is directed at JCH, not Chris.
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"I guarantee that unless you've been in combat anyone would be completely unprepared and unable to accurately return fire."
Using this standard, police officers should not be permitted to carry weapons until they have been down range.
I'd love to talk to you since I seem to have met your prerequisites. I have been down range several times and been on the receiving end of incoming rounds. I also accurately return fire and somehow managed not to hit any innocent bystanders.
I don't have a CC permit but know many who do and can tell you they spend a lot more time on the range than the average police officer or soldier.
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Heres a thought to ponder for any side I dont care which.
This world is a world where CC is allowed.
Scenario 1) A person starts shooting in a classroom, a CC permit holder is in the room he ducks for cover then assess's the situation returns fire kills the shooter and is deemed a hero. Sounds pretty good.
Then there is a flip side to that
Scenario 2) Shooter starts shooting a classroom, CC permit holder ducks for cover, panics and starts firing semi-randomly. He kills the shooter but also kills a bystander and injures another. He is deemed a hero by some and is outright blasted by others saying he is responsible for so and so's death. The injured person is happy that the CCW holder was there but is approached by a lawyer and told she can win some money in a case. Whether she wins or not the Permit holders life is ruined for a while or forever.
Both of these scenarios have equal chances of happening. The permit holder is likely to panic more often then not, because that is human nature, but not always likely to hit bystanders so it evens out.
It is really a risk reward situation. I couldn't careless really, campus is fine and dandy without them and nothing much will change with them so IDC!
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Chris: Like JCH, you make your scenarios up in your head without reference to real life. There have been many descriptions off CC permit holders defending themselves, even in relatively crowded circumstances. What you describe does not happen with any regularity. If you think it does, please provide the statistics.
The idea that your two scenarios have an "EQUAL" chance of happening?? Where'd you grab that concept from?
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He grabbed it from the orifice between the cheeks of his derriere.
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Im making scenarios because its fun and it gets people angry. Debating is fun, watching people get their panties in a bunch on the intrawebs his freaking hilarious!
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The "likelihood to panic" argument is quite ridiculous, as others have pointed out. But let me also make one point you overlooked.
Take 2 classrooms being attacked, one where everyone is unarmed, and the other where 5% are armed (typ percentage of people with permits).
In the first classroom, everyone is slowly but surely shot and killed with no resistance, much like 4/16, and the body count is high.
In classroom 2, the attacker takes a few shots and gets return fire. The experts agree: Active Shooters give up when faced with resistance. So even if the CCW holder fired wildly and hit someone, god forbid, don't you think there are going to be less fatalities? Notice how many were killed in the Colorado church shooting if you can't answer that.
Also, CCW is about more than classroom shootings. How about stabbings? Rape? Abduction? etc..
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Jeff, you make such an elementary argument that you must be high, what? Are you mentally insane, or just stupid?
The scenario would probably be the people armed in the back of the room accidentally shooting the people in the front of the room, while shooting at the shooter. Of course, the shooter would probably flee, while the room continues to erupt in gunfire, call 911 because we still have a room full of casualties, due to ricocheting bullets and accidental shootings (Pathetic)!
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OK, Chris, you're an admitted troll.
Noted.
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For emotional hot button issues yes.
I am actually for CCW so you can hate to love me, or w/e IDC!
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Jim, what he's actually trying to do is weasel his way out of looking like a fool. A troll nonetheless.
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It isn't illegal to carry on campus, and the only people a campus can do anything about are Students, and Staff of that campus.
A VT student can carry on Radford University Campus, and Vice Versa. Since I'm not a student and am not employed by Virginia Tech, I can carry when I walk across campus, and I do fairly often.
Just like I carry when I'm at Walmart, the mall, the movies, getting gas, or even going into the bank. I carry about 99% of the time I'm out of my home, and I know a lot of people who do the same.
You are around guns all the time, no matter where you are.
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This would not be true in Texas where guns of any civilian are forbidden on university property.
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Jim yes I realize that. Georgia is the same.
But this article is discussing Virginia Campuses, so I based my comments on that.
Thanks for pointing this out though, I would hate to be the cause of getting somebody in trouble. For instance it needs to be said that carrying at VCU in Richmond is prohibited by state law. They are listed by name.
Virginia Tech, and Radford University aren't, so odds are if I'm on either campus, I'll be armed, just like if I'm anywhere else.
Check and make sure you understand the state and local laws of the area you choose to carry in, before you carry.
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Fort Hood shooter Nidal Malik Hasan has now become the 5th concealed handgun permit holder to commit mass murder in the U.S. in 2009. Here's a detailed accounting of these five confirmed cases:
www.csgv.org/ccwmassshooters
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So what happened with this bill?
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The author of this article is absolutely insane in making the bold prediction that the right to carry concealed weapons on campus will pass; when donkeys fly. It is evident that the author is overreaching and totally out of his mind, or high (lol). I hope that a permit to carry a concealed weapon on campus never happens; we have enough to deal with without adding guns to the mixture (asinine writers and such). Ill await news of the authors guarantee of passage (I will not hold my breath though, lol).
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