Blacksburg restaurant owners are lobbying against a bill that would allow permit holders to carry concealed weapons in establishments that serve alcohol.
Jason Brauns, who owns Top of the Stairs on College Avenue, is a concealed carry permit holder, but does not want concealed weapons in his establishment.
“In a nutshell, I have a concealed weapons permit,” Brauns said. “I believe in gun rights and being able to carry guns, but I don’t believe that in bars or anywhere alcohol is involved is the place for them.”
The Virginia House of Delegates has passed the bill and the senate is expected to vote on it Tuesday. The bill would change Virginia’s laws on concealed weapons. Currently, concealed weapons are not allowed in restaurants that serve alcohol. The bill would allow concealed carry permit holders to carry guns in restaurants, as long as the holders do not consume alcohol.
Robert Hodges, who owns Bud Foster’s Restaurant, said the legislation would put restaurant owners in an uncomfortable situation.
“I think this is the worst thing the legislation in Richmond could ever do to restaurants and bars,” Hodges said.
Brauns said the stipulation that requires the person concealing the weapon to not drink would be difficult to deal with.
“I guess that would make it a lot more challenging to enforce that,” Brauns said. “I think it needs to be a blanket law on that. You can either carry it in there or you can’t.”
If the bill were to be enacted into law, Brauns said he would put up a sign prohibiting guns in Top of the Stairs.
Hodges said adding the sign could create an image problem with patrons visiting from other areas.
“You can put up a sign on your door that says ‘No guns allowed,’ but I’ll be honest with you, how likely is someone from out of town to enter a restaurant or bar where they have a big sign posted that says ‘No guns allowed?’”
Hodges is afraid difficult enforcement conditions could lead to safety hazards.
“As an owner and operator of a restaurant that does serve alcohol, yeah I have some concerns and some safety issues with the legislation,” Hodges said. “The fact that someone can walk in here with a concealed weapon just because they have a permit, get intoxicated, and if there is an altercation pull a gun and discharge it in my establishment concerns me greatly.”
John Welch, a Virginia Tech senior and spokesman for Students for Non-Violence, said local state government officials are not accurately representing the citizens of the Blacksburg area.
Delegates Dave Nutter and Jim Shuler, who each represent a portion of Montgomery County, voted for the measure. Sen. John Edwards, who represents a portion of Montgomery County, has yet to vote. None of the officials immediately returned phone calls from the Collegiate Times.
“They’re sort of out of touch with a lot of people that they’re saying we’re out of touch with,” Welch said.
Welch said the bill will likely pass in the senate, but he has been leading the opposition effort.
“I think there’s a good chance,” Welch said. “It was so close when it was in committee, so now all the pressure is really going on Delegate Nutter and Sen. Edwards, and we’ve been pounding his e-mail inbox for the last 48 hours.”
universtity news editor philipp kotlaba contributed to this report
A version of this article appeared in the Feb 16 issue of the Collegiate Times.
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Typical biased CT article. It is illegal to drink alcohol while carrying a gun in VA and this bill does not change that fact. Owners of restaurants are going to have greater control over their own property than they currently do now. It would be illegal for someone with a concealed carry permit to bring a weapon into an establishment serving alcohol and drink now and that same action will be illegal if this law passes. Anyone worried about these types of incidences increasing is out of touch with reality or in denial about the fact that this part of VA law is not changing.
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While they could have done a better job presenting the argument for the bill, I believe the issue restaurant owners have with it is that they won't know not to serve someone if their weapon is concealed. I don't want to be frisked or have to walk through a metal detector to get into a bar.
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The onus is on the concealed carry permit holder with a weapon on their person to not order alcoholic drinks. Or restaurant owners can post "no guns allowed" signs and CCW holders will have to obey.
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...so restaurant owners have to either rely on every single gun owner to act responsibly or implement a search at the door? That's not giving them "greater control over their property" as you state in your original post. I certainly wouldn't want a business I invested my life savings in to be in the news as "the place where that shooting happened".
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Yes, owners are relying on CCW holders to follow the law. Just like they expect CCW holders to leave their guns in their cars (or open carry them) under the existing laws in this state.
Not sure where you got this "search at the door" business, but it has no basis in the article or anything I've written.
Owners wouldn't be searching anyone. They would post a sign that says "no guns allowed." Anyone carrying a gun into an establishment with such a sign would be violating the law. This is greater control b/c owners can specify, individually, whether they want to permit or ban concealed weapons in their establishments.
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But they wouldn't be breaking the law carrying a weapon into a "no guns allowed" bar - they would only be breaking the rules of the establishment. They're losing control because it is no longer against the law, and adding a sign makes it look like a sketchy place. I understand where the CCW holders are coming from, but I don't understand your argument that this will be good for business.
And what happens the first time a well-meaning CCW holder has one too many and a gun gets drawn? Any sensible owner is going to step up security, and I've seen metal detectors implemented before.
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They're not a well-meaning permit holder if they're drinking while carrying.
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Actually, carrying a gun into an establishment that says "No Guns Allowed" will break the law. By law private property owners have the right to ban guns. If that ban is broken they are trespassing and breaking the law and would likely have their Concealed Handgun Permit revoked. Please do your homework before making claims.
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I'm not a lawyer, but according to 18.2-119. the property owner would have to prove in court that a "No Guns Allowed" sign legally forbids someone with a gun from entering their property. Sounds like a lot of headache over a misdemeanor. In reality I'm sure they would just be asked to leave, and only charged if they didn't. Please do your homework and cite specific laws if you're going to call me out.
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18.2-119 states that the owner only needs to orally forbid someone to be on their property, even in the absence of a sign, and if they return or fail to leave, they can be charged with a class 1 misdemeanor. By the way, a class 1 misdemeanor is fairly serious. Just because it's not a felony doesn't mean it's not a hefty charge. Up to 12 months in jail and $2500 fine. Your complaint that it's difficult to enforce is interesting, since that's the case with most of the gun laws that are proposed to strengthen regulation anyway.
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So we're on the same page then - carrying a gun into a bar with a "No Guns Allowed" sign probably wouldn't be against the law, but staying when asked to leave because you're breaking the rules is. I was responding to Ianni's claim that simply entering was a crime.
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I apologize for not making specific reference to particular law. Yet, the law you mentioned, 18.2-119 specifically states that a sign banning guns is all that is needed to ban guns: "or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign." I really don't see how you can site this statute and not read it completely. http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc1802000/18.2-119.html
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Couldn't edit previous comment so I will add this here. The previous statue is more applicable to trespassing than it is to guns. The correct statute is 18.2-203 section O: "The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property." I believe that once prohibited the person would therefore be trespassing and then the previous statute applies.
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Arrg, you win :)
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Not to mention the poll they're conducting. The choices are ridiculous. "I feel more safe." "I feel less safe." How about "I have informed myself on the issue, and I have come to the conclusion that, since bar and restaurant owners may continue to prohibit firearms in their establishments, and since they use no active measures to ensure that patrons don't currently carry concealed weapons illegally, there should be no noticeable difference.
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"Currently, weapons are not allowed in restaurants that serve alcohol."
Not accurate. Only [i]concealed[/i] weapons are illegal. Wear it openly (in plain view) and it's perfectly legal.
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This law is desperately needed for all those CCW holders that need to go to bars and drink water.
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This is a tremendously stupid idea.
People drink. People get drunk. People ALWAYS get into fights.
Carrying a concealed weapon into restaurants (where alcohol is served)
is begging for a shoot out. Our Va Gun Lobby is so phenomenally out of touch with reality I can't believe all of the cr*p that they are getting shoved through our corrupt legislature. BOYCOTT VIRGINIA.
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Good leave Virginia we don't want you here. Have fun in a tax and spend, going bankrupt state in the north.
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Wow, that's such a compelling argument, especially with your compassion for mankind, I think I'm going to side with you. No, sorry, just kidding.
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The current laws are out of touch. This is more about strolling down the street and deciding to drop in somewhere and eat lunch without revealing your weapon. It's less about carrying weapons into TOTS at 11pm on a Saturday night. I don't know too many people that go out to the bars at night with no intention of drinking. This law would not allow drinking and carrying, and I don't know any permit holder that would risk the sentence for carrying under the influence: up to 12 months jail time and up to $2500 fine. That's commensurate with the penalty for DUI, which seems fair: in both cases, you didn't actually harm anyone, but you engaged in dangerous behavior that could have led to harm.
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I do hope this passes this year. The way things are currently is just silly. I can carry in a restaurant, if I do it openly. Have you tried that in this weather? I went out for dinner Saturday night, and it's 'walk in, take jacket off immediately, get seated, have meal, walk out with book, gloves, hat, jacket, food box in hand, stop at entrance and suit up' because I have to open carry the whole bloody time. This isn't about gun owners wanting to drink while concealed carrying, this is about being able to conceal while we're having dinner in a place that can serve alcohol, which is just about any place around here. As someone who carries both openly and concealed, I can tell you, there are times where I'd like to just have my meal in peace, instead of drawing the attention that an openly-carried pistol tends to in a town filled with college students.
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Then don't walk around town with a gun. It's not that challenging.
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Amen. The current law does not make anyone any safer: all it does is inconvenience law-abiding people.
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The thing is though there are no bars in the state of Virginia. There are only restaurants that serve alcohol. This is about permit holders being able to carry at places like Olive Garden.
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Aye, that's the issue. And really, most of the 'bars' around town serve decent enough food. So it happens that I might like to stop in to chat, have dinner with friends, and then leave, all without drinking. There already exist laws against being intoxicated and in possession of a weapon, what's wrong with simply enforcing that, instead of this junk of always trying to plug a perceived pinhole with a 3'x3' steel plate? It just makes life and complying with the law more cumbersome.
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I haven't even lived in VA for a whole year, but as much as it seems like Virginians value their freedom and a small government I'm wondering who passed the alcohol laws here. Government-owned liquor stores that close at 9 and aren't open at all on Sunday; no selling beer or wine after midnight; drunk in public; no such thing as bars; really Virginia?
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Hey CT how about you get comments from both sides of the issue. If you talk to students for non-violence than you need to talk to Students for Concealed Carry. It's called being an objective journalist you should try it sometime. Without objective reporting this article should be placed in the opinion section.
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This story belongs in the Opinion section. I think CT is missing the main objective of the bill and fails to understand the current laws.
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Well what is the main objective of the bill, and what current laws are they misunderstanding?
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The main objective of the bill is to allow people with permits to carry into establishments that serve alcohol without having to open carry. Some people don't like to open carry because it can cause unwanted attention from people who view guns in a negative light.
It is already illegal to be under the influence of alcohol and carry a gun in VA. There isn't currently anything stopping anyone from carrying concealed into a bar, getting drunk and starting a shootout, except for, wait for it, a law stating it's illegal to be under the influence and be in possession of a firearm.
As a law abiding citizen and CHP holder, I follow that law as does every CHP holder I personally know. I can't speak for everyone, but we like our rights and we do our best to not break laws.
They misunderstand that it is illegal to carry in an establishment that serves alcohol at all. It is currently legal, you must be openly carrying though and they very clearly mis-state this and leave it out of the argument entirely.
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It passed the Senate, 22 to 18.
Hopefully the House doesn't drop the ball.
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I don't see what the problem is. Alcohol and guns are a great combination. Perhaps they could add more security about not drinking while carrying though? Personally, I'd feel more safe if they made you 'cross your heart' not to drink while carrying in a bar. I'm not willing to go as far as a pinky swear though, because that's just liberal garbage.
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How about the 12 month jail sentence or the 2.5k fine that would be levied against someone carrying under the influence? Seems like a rather good deterrent.
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I'm not a gun fairing man, but do believe that we have the right to have guns within the literal reading of the Constitution. However, the 2nd amendment was meant for citizens to be able to overthrow their government with arms. The last time I checked, I would need a nuclear bomb and several billions of dollars to over throw the government.
The reality is, we have the right to have pea shooters, but it's almost become pointless. If you want to have pea shooters to protect yourself, then wear it like a man and show it to everyone. Everyone needs to be able to see how big your gun is.
Concealed weapons permit for the general public goes against the whole concept of open deterrence. If you want to carry a gun into a bar, you can under the current law. Just follow the law and don't make special cases for the concealed weapons people. The problem with the new law is it puts the responsibility onto the restaurant owners, instead of the gun owners. If it's already illegal to be drunk with a gun, then why bother passing this law?
This bill is about convenience to CWP holders and shifting responsibility to the restaurant owners.
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Not sure how it passes responsibility to the restaurant owners. All responsibility remains squarely on the shoulders of the person carrying the weapon to not consume alcohol.
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Pea-shooters? If you believe the 2nd amendment's purpose is to insure our ability to protect ourselves from/overthrow our government, then perhaps you shouldn't be worried about this bill, but instead insist that the regulations on our 2nd amendment be relaxed. Even though the military has a huge advantage against an armed populace, does not mean that we should roll over and capitulate.
Besides, this bill is designed to make it easier for people who carry on a regular basis to dip into a place that isn't a "bar" for a bite to eat without breaking the law. Many states, more liberal than Virginia, already allow places that make more money from food than alcohol to allow concealed carry.
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Hey restaurant owners. What measures do you currently take to ensure that criminals are not carrying guns, in violation of the law, and consuming alcohol in your restaurant?
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They currently use the honor system... Ironic isn't it. Restaurant owners don't enforce the law against criminals, yet they will actively prohibit the law abiding from peacefully enjoying a meal. Of course, despite what "Gunshow" above thinks, it's not the resaurant's responsibility to enforce the law, but to make sure the restaurant complies with the law. Nothing has changed regarding the restaurant's liability.
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First of all, this law does not prevent anyone from carrying a concealed handgun and drinking. Anyone who wants to do that is already doing it. Those people are called "criminals".
What this law does is make it possible to have a few law-abiding armed people in the restaurant, as well.
The choice a restaurant owner must ask herself is not "Do I as allow guns in my establishment?" The question she needs to ask is, "Do I want *criminals* to be the *only* ones who have guns in my establishment?"
For myself, I will not take my family into a place with a "No guns" sign on the door. All that means is that the only people who walk through the door are criminals, and potential victims, and I do not want my family to be either.
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The same thing is going on out here in Arizona. And they also are trying to pass a bill where no background checks, gun safety classes for concealed weapons permits. And on top of that they are cutting assistance to mentally ill and poor people who have to take medications. Very brilliant thinking, by our illustrious leaders. You guys in Virginia are lucky. Our politicians out here are amazingly clueless.
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Please cite your source. I reviewed Arizona HB 2016, 2347, and 2621, as well as SB 1011 and 1102, which seem to be the only ones bearing any relevance to the topic of concealed carry, and it seems to me that there are no bills attempting to do what you say.
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