WEI HANN / COLLEGIATE TIMES
When I take her hand, I always look 50 yards ahead of me. If I see a cadet, a group of guys, or an older Blacksburgian on my radar, my fingers start to squirm. I hate to pass judgment based on statistics I hardly have, and even more, I hate that I allow myself to stereotype individuals into categories when ultimately all I fear is that they’ll do the same for me. But despite some sense of rationality I do hypothetically possess, my fingers twinge, because even in the final semester of my senior year I still haven’t shed all of my high school insecurities about who I am.
Related: This is one of eight columns written for Valentine's Day 2011. Check out all the writers: Jason Campbell, Owen Davis, the Editorial Board, Noor Khalidi, Sean Simons, Ben Woody, and Shelby Vasko and Jen Underwood.
A similar thing happens when we walk into a restaurant, and it’s just the two of us, but there I’ve at least morphed my anxiety into some sort of game. The host may make a passing judgment on the status of our relationship: Are we classmates, sisters, friends — or something more? But once we’re all set at our designated table it’s on to the waiter’s turn, and he’s got more time on the clock to make his call.
Every once in a while a more-forward waiters will skip the guesswork and ask why we aren’t out with boyfriends, but usually I have some fun reading the micro-expressions on their faces, looking for the shift in their expressions when they figure out we’re more than just friends. If they’re perceptive, they’ll realize it when I can’t stop myself from locking eyes with her. If not, maybe they’ll catch a glimpse of her putting her hand on mine or the moment when we brush legs underneath the table.
Valentine’s Day is different. I’ve only had a few of them where I ask for a table for two with a girl by my side, but from my brief experiences there’s more of a question on everyone’s faces as to what I’m doing showing up to this fancy restaurant without a boy in-tow. Ultimately, I know I’m thinking way too much about this.
I envy my friends who can just go to dinner and talk about how the food tastes without considering how the waiter looks at you or, really, doesn’t look at you. Thanks to decades of silent heroes who chose to be with the one that made them truly happy, even in the face of grave difficulties, I’m pretty sure the vast majority of waiters now are only concerned with how to earn a respectable tip at the end of the meal.
This is where my mind takes me when asked to write an opinion on what it’s like to identify as LGBTQ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, questioning/queer — if you didn’t know) on Valentine’s Day. So far though, all I’ve really answered is what it’s like to identify as LGBTQ, and ridiculously overanalyze the brains out of any scenario — because that’s just how I roll. But I’ll do my job and let you in on a little secret: There’s no gay boycott of Valentine’s Day.
A version of this article appeared in the Feb 11 issue of the Collegiate Times.
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/shrug You'd only get a second look from me if one of you dressed, acted or looked like a dude. Same with dudes who try to act thouper. But if you both looked and acted like chicks, I wouldn't shake my head and wonder why humans are so bizarre.
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Yikes. Is this your attempt at looking open-minded?
Well in that case, I only approve of heterosexual couples if both parties are attractive. And if said couple is not attractive, I will take it upon myself to take a moral stand and point out their short-fallings in public forums.
Now, wouldn't that be "thouper?"
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Humans are bizarre because so many of them adhere to gender norms despite the inherent oppression of those enforced roles. And they're weird because they care so much about what other people are doing with their own private lives.
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Actually, your belief that humans consciously choose to conform to gender roles conflicts with evidence that gender roles are innate, and thus chosen unintentionally. (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys.html)
However, I will agree that many (especially males) consciously try to act out extremely strict gender roles out of fears that they will be judged homosexual by their peers.
With this said, I still don't think it's likely that gender is a consciously made decision.
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** flee from this relationship !!!
** Romans 1 : 26- 28
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Judge not, lest ye be judged??... or something like that.
Shut your pie hole and let people live their lives the way they want! There's no reason to stick your nose in someone else's business.
Here's something to think about: there are several billion people who think you are going to hell because you don't practice their faith. Are you sure you're right about everything? Are you sure anyone is right? Ignorance is bliss - go ahead and keep hiding behind that Anonymous screen name...
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the real question is " where are you going after
you die ? " you will spend eternity somewhere and the decision you make while still on earth will determine your eternal destiny.
my friend , do not dread and be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have nothing more they can do. i am warning you whom you should fear: fear HIM WHO ,after killing , has power to hurl into hell( GEHENNA ). Yes , i say to you, fear HIM ! LUKE 12 : 4-5
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I believe the bible, but I also believe in vampires! Let people (and vampires) do what they want.
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Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Sounds like SBrick is doin' alright by the big guy's standards.
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Well played, friend.
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Leviticus 18 22
A man shall not lay down with another man as he does a woman for this is an abomination.
The Bible is clear in it's opinion on homosexual relations. If you engage in them than you are sinning and will burn in hellfire without repenting. Make no mistake a gay will burn if they do not stop their relations and repent.
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It also appears that the Bible has clear opinions about illegal immigration:
LEVITICUS 19:33-34
33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
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It's cool...I'm going to hell anyway. If heaven is full of narrow minded people like you, hell sounds like a party. Also, religion should be something that makes you a better person, not a judgmental jerk. Why do you care what people do in their own time, if it doesn't affect you?
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Thank you so much for letting me know that God is going to send me to hell. You're ability to spread Christ's message of love and forgiveness is a testament to us all and a constant inspiration for me to rid myself of my evil. Honestly, any God that is going to send me to hell for the way I am (the way He made me) is no God worth worshiping and I would rather go to Hell than stay in Heaven with a bigoted tyrant like Him and you.
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I feel like god has bigger fish to fry. Like hypocrites and judgmental "followers."
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SHRIMP EATERS REPENT!
Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
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Listen to you... "a gay will burn..." Do you think this is 1965?
There are those of us who don't care about the Bible. You live by your rules, I'll live by mine, and we can leave each other alone. How's that for ya?
PS - AK87: I love the SHRIMP EATERS REPENT! comment. Nice touch.
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Anonymous (aka Holier Than Thou)
Actually that's correct, the society is commanded by God to shun the homosexual and cut him out of the social structure. So when you form your enclaves and engage each other in sinful acts away from mainstream society, that is the way it should be. It's not our place to interfere for you shall be made to answer to the Lord.
Also to Shrimp eaters repent the kosher dining rules were overturned in the New Testament. Unfortunately, homosexuality remains a sin throughout the entire book.
And Finally to AK87 Romans makes it clear that the government has the right to make laws and enforce them.
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Then may God smile upon ObamaCare and gay marriage!
Also, citations help.
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Also, from the mouth of Jesus Christ (who for some reason didn't think homosexuality was a big enough deal to mention):
Matthew 7: 1-5
1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
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At no point have I made a judgment. I've simply stated that homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of Christianity, which is fact. If you have a problem with what I'm saying than perhaps you should look into why the truth bothers you so. To address your other point, God commands us to respect the government's authority but it does not mean that it's laws override Biblical ones. Even if you get gay marriage your union will still be an abomination before the Lord and you will called to answer for that sin.
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The truth that you're referring to is the truth that the Christian bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Not the truth that homosexuality is actually wrong; just wanted to make sure we're on the same page.
Now, to why it bothers me so much. It bothers me because I know there are good Christian folk out there and you're giving them a horrible name. Not only are you being kind of a dick, but you're making zero effort to witness, zero effort to show God's love and quite frankly, you're picking on the little guy (something Jesus wasn't too keen on). You're a sham of an evangelist and you're going to feel incredibly silly when there are some gay people in heaven and "Christians" in hell.
My parents are good Christian people who love me no matter what and make an effort to show it, and you're nothing like them. Maybe you should work on expanding your world-view and hang out with the "sinners" and get to know us before you start throwing scripture at us and expect something to stick.
Happy Valentine's Day.
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They may love you but they aren't helping you. The sin of homosexuality may a hard truth to accept but you'll have to accept it. It is easier to casually dismiss scripture and lead a sinful life but those that do so perish. If you turn away from your lifestyle and place faith in the Lord you shall be delivered unto the promised land. You cannot be forgiven until you accept you actions as sin though. I have no doubt that there are homosexuals in heaven, being tempted to sin is not a sin, giving into that temptation is. There is hope for everyone but not if you don't accept basic truths.
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Nah.
And don't talk about my momma.
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Then you shall perish, for Lord has infinite patience but he only forgives those that repent. I pray that you will one day accept the truth before it is too late.
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I think AK has made several points which are completely valid. What it comes down to is there is a lot of conflicting crap in the Bible (New and Old Test). The fact is, you're picking and choosing which points to use in your arguments. People have been doing this for centuries to suit their cause - and it is YOUR cause, not anyone else's.
These basic "truths" you refer to can easily be refuted by other basic "truths" in the bible, but you choose to use only the ones which suit your cause of suggesting homosexuality is wrong.
Also, your suggestion that you have not made a judgement at any point in your arugments is flat out incorrect. Go back and read what you've written, or are you too blinded by Christ to see that what you're doing is judging?
PS - My boss is a Hebrew National.
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Yeah, the Crusades were completely cool, but god forbid you should get a little girl on girl action if you're in love with the person.
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"The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision." (Lavner, 1996)
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Homosexuality is sin, the Bible is clear on the matter. If it was overturned in the New Testament that would be one thing but it isn't. You can either accept it or choose to remain ignorant. I sincerely hope you accept the truth and don't follow ak87's example. Furthermore there have been no judgments on my part, stating biblical doctrine is hardly a judgment. You should instead ask yourselves why the Bible's stance on the issue makes you feel the way you do.
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DON'T TREAD ON ME, ANONYMOUS
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Anon,
Give it a rest. Just because you keep responding doesn't mean you're making any good points.
Love,
Every poor sap who made it this far down on the message board.
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I don't accept the bible as truth, nor will I ever. Some parts of it present a good outline as to how to live your life, but other parts (like the ones you're suggesting) are outdated and flat out wrong. I'm perfectly capable of leading a good moral life by my own standards which are, in my humble opinion, better than your average christian's.
"Remaining ignorant" indicates my being unimformed about something. I'm quite informed about the bible - maybe moreso than a good percentage of folks who go to church every Sunday. But accepting the bible as "truth" is not something I will blindly do, particularly when it contains so many contradictions. If you need a book to tell you how to live your life, so be it. I certainly don't need one to help me get around.
And, as a side note, I'm heterosexual. I just dislike bible thumpers and their warnings to people living good lives based on THEIR book. If you think you are correct about everything based on that book, fine. But it's not MY book and it's none of your business what other good people do with their lives.
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That's a completely different argument from this one AK. At no point is this an argument about the morality of homosexuality or the validity of faith. Rather it is a warning to the Christian homosexuals that they need to repent for their sins. If you aren't a Christian than this doesn't concern you.
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"At no point is this an argument about the morality of homosexuality or the validity of faith. "
You know that lying is a sin too, dumbass.
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OH Anon don't be fresh
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This does concern non-Christian gays when people are using their religion to determine our rights.
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The rights you are referring to is marriage and religion certainly gets a say in a religious ceremony. You should just get civil unions and leave the Lord out of it. Follow Elton John's example.
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1 - We don't have the option of civil unions in this state. In fact, a constitutional amendment specifically eliminates civil unions as a possibility in Virginia.
2 - Civil unions have almost none of the rights of marriage. And what does it say that we're reverting to 1940s "separate but equal" arguments?
3 - Elton John has a civil union in a different country. Not a valid argument. And not all of us want to be like Elton John, Ellen Degeneres, Rosie O'Donnell, and Boy George. Just like not all straight people want to be just like GI Joe and Barbie. Some of us have our own personalities.
4 - Marriage is not inherently religious. Tens of millions of married atheists are allowed to get married in this country. Why should they get all the rights of your "religious ceremony" when we don't?
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Yes marriage isn't religious I guess the priest church and the searing of vows to God had me confused.
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A man and a woman can get married in the eyes of the state with no church involved. It's called a marriage and it has all the same legal rights and responsibilities of a union that happened to have the papers signed in a church by a priest.
Now that there's no priest, church, or vows to god to confuse anyone, why is the marriage license granted by the government a religious thing?
Let churches decide whether or not to allow religious ceremonies for different types of couples (some won't recognize inter-faith marriages or marriages between people who have been divorced), but the government shouldn't discriminate based on sexual orientation or gender identity (or inter-faith or divorced status).
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Crysta, at least we can agree on that. If government would get out of the marriage business entirely this would be a completely different argument. Make it easier for people to legally designate who gets hospital visitation, child custody, inheritance, etc and leave marriage to churches or other institutions. Even as a heterosexual I hated having to go to the government to basically ask permission to get married (marriage license). If legal rights like those I listed above weren't attached to that little piece of governmental paper we would have foregone the official marriage license entirely and just gotten married in church.
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We really do completely agree on that. I don't see why the government is involved in people's personal relationships at all and I think it should probably get out of the marriage business completely.
If the government is going to continue granting legal status to the relationship between two people, I think the name should be changed to civil unions for everyone. That's what it is, right? The government has no religious status so all they can really grant is a civil recognition anyway. Call it what it is, a civil union, and religious marriage ceremonies can be left up to churches, temples, synagogues, etc where they belong.
I think that would resolve a lot of the arguing and conflict people get into.
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1) Then why the heck do we have a religious ceremony built into our secular legal code?
2) Civil unions, where they exist (few places), do not carry the same rights as marriage. Marriage brings with it over 1200 rights at the state and federal levels. Civil unions only include a few dozen. How is that fair, especially when the differentiation is based on *your* religious beliefs rather than something universal?
3) Not all religions oppose gay marriage. In fact, many Christian sects welcome gay congregants and bless gay unions. The United Church of Christ (UCC), Episcopalian Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, the Metropolitan Community Church, the Old Catholic Church, and the Unity School of Christianity are just a few. Not to mention Unitarianism, Reform Judaism, and a great number of Hindu, Buddhist, and Sikh sects. So really, you're infringing on the rights of these religious groups (and atheists) -- they cannot legally marry gay couples because your particular brand of Christianity says so.
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Whoops. I meant this to be a reply to "Anonymous, February 12, 2011 @ 7:46 AM."
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so you think you are good eh ! take a good long look at the 10
commandments and see how good you are ! Maybe you missed these in your understanding of the BIBLE .
" NO ,THERE IS NO ONE WHO IS GOOD ! " Since ALL have sinned and ARE falling short of the honor and glory which GOD BESTOWS AND RECEIVES. Try this one : " The heart is deceitful above all things and is exceedingly perverse and is
severely motally sick " jeremiah 17:9
My friend : by not accepting the truth of the BIBLE, WHAT YOU ARE DOING IN ESSENCE IS REJECTING THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE ! HE IS TRUTH ! TRUTH IS NOT A CONCEPT . IT'S IN THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST ! One of JESUS' great I AM statements is : I am the truth , the way , and the life.
I encourage you to re-think your stand and get to know this JESUS , THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD ! HE IS THE WAY : AND NOT ONE OF THE WAYS TO HEAVEN !! Do you know where you are going after you die ! selah
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I just want to say, I LOVE YOU ROOMIE and your beautiful prose.
Get 'em tiger.
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In other news:
Being gay is really fun. Good article, Brickman.
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Amen, AK87; Brickman rocks, and I am so proud of you for owning this article. Hold your head up high & ignore the ignorant conservative masses (messes). For we will all be judged only by what is in our own hearts, and that is between us and the God we choose to serve. No one...absolutely no one...has the right nor the power to make God change his love for us. Romans 8:38-39: "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God"
So...let them condemn you. Let them say you are "going to hell"....let them call you out....but they do not speak for the one whom is greater than us all. His love is in me & they cannot take that away, no matter what they spew. That is what drives them crazy the most. They can bully...but they can only bluff..they cannot control us...and they know it!
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Your spirit is commendable, I sincerely hope that you aren't a homosexual in denial about that act's sinful nature. For God loves all but he will banish the unrepentant sinner to the fires of hell.
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Anon, your version of God doesn't even make any sense. If God wanted us to be otherwise, (s)he would have made us so.
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God tests us all and gives us challenges to overcome, but he does not give us any hurdle that we can't jump over. Put your faith in him and you shall overcome.
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Anon @ 6:03 - Where are you finding this guarantee that God makes everyone perfect? Everyone has a sin nature and is predisposed to particular sins - whether drunkenness, lying, sexual immorality, pride, gluttony or homosexuality. Whatever the predisposition, Christians are called to deny their own lusts and live holy lives anyway.
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That's a really terrible and illogical thing for any loving god to do.
Gay relationships are about love as much as straight ones are. I'm a woman. Why would a just god make me this way me fall madly in love with another female, and then say, "Oh, it's just a test"? 1 COR 13:13 points out that among faith, hope, and love, the greatest is love. According to scripture, love is a vital function in both our human functions and as spiritual beings serving God:
"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." (1 COR 13:2)
What a horrible thing to do to people, to tell them that the greatest gift and responsibility we have as a species, love, is something that the gay population is not allowed to participate in. We just have to sit here like diabetic kids at a birthday party watching straight couples cheat on each other and treat each other badly, and then listen to much of the population lecture *us* about the sanctity of heterosexual love.
I have a happy, healthy home with a beautiful person who treats me well, someone who shares my dreams and most deeply-held values. That's a gift, not some warped test. And if your God is one that sees this as evil, that's a God that's not really doing anything good anyway.
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God can only be God if He fits your job description?
"with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward."
If you see God as evil, the fault is in your own heart.
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God can only be a god worth worshiping if s/he is a god that values love. That's all that's happening here.
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God values love as HE defines it, not as man defines it. Love is so much more than just the person you get naked with.
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"Love is so much more than just the person you get naked with."
I agree. Love is the person who brings me soup when I get the flu. Love is the person who comes to Thanksgiving and helps my Catholic mother make the turkey. Love is the person who reminds me to call my grandma because she knows it'll make her happy to hear from me. Love is the person who takes a job in the tiny southern town where I'm in school when she could have moved to a state that treats her more like an equal member of society. Love is the person who sits in the waiting room while I'm in the ER (while the boyfriend of a straight girl gets to go sit with her in the hospital room).
Gay people have to leap mountains for love, so don't give me your self-righteous bs about what love is.
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You know God didn't write the bible, right? PEOPLE actually wrote it. Newsflash.
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Yes people wrote the Bible but they wrote what the Lord said so it doesn't matter. Yes the Bible did not magically manifest itself in some ancient library but it is still the word of God.
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Yes JD Salinger wrote the Catcher in the Rye but he wrote what Holden Caufield said so it doesn't matter. Yes The Catcher in the Rye did not magically manifest itself in some high school library but it is still the word of Holden Caulfield.
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But people were involved in the interpretation and translation of that message. And humans are prone to distort anything as long as they can make it fit their personal goals.
It's not a huge leap to think that the word "abomination" may have a little bit of baggage attached to it.
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But people were involved in the interpretation and translation of that message. And humans are prone to distort anything as long as they can make it fit their personal goals.
It's not a huge leap to think that the word "abomination" may have a little bit of baggage attached to it.
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Nanner, you are still only looking at "love" through the prism of a single interpersonal relationship. Yet you originally quoted Paul's writings in making your argument for "love". Paul. A man who lived and died celibate.
For God so loved the world...
We love him because he first loved us...
Greater love hath no man than this...
You are in no way being denied love. Love is more than the person you are with.
Oh and I believe that a God big enough to create the world, speak the heavens into existence, die on a cross to save my soul and inspire the original writings, is big enough to preserve his Bible from the interference of man and his translations.
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@ Douchebed - Careful, your intolerance is showing.
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No you misunderstand it, the Bible is God's word and the word of prophet's written down. You can accept it as truth or you're not a Christian. There is no picking and choosing what you believe. If you believe in the Christian God than you must also accept the Bible as is.
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So what about the countless examples of conflict between two passages of "God's word?" What do you do then? You interpret how YOU see fit. God isn't going to come down and say "this is what I actually meant." It comes down to human interpretation, just like any book or written document.
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The reality is, you don't have to see it my way (you know, the way where I don't see homosexuality as immoral). God's word is not as cut and dry as you suggest, and it's pretty arrogant to think that your interpretation is the only interpretation.
Let's try another document - the Constitution. Freedom of Speech may mean one thing to you and something completely different to me. But I don't go into a public forum preaching about how my interpretation is correct and yours is incorrect.
Don't try to say I'm not a Christian because I don't interpret the bible by YOUR interpretation. Unfortunately, people like you spouting off how their interpretation of the bible is the only right interpretation give other Christians a bad name.
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With the Bible it clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. Leviticus 18 as the laws concerning sexual behavior. In the same chapter you'll find rules against incest and bestiality. You're in denial if you don't believe that the Bible condemns homosexuality there, it's stated clearly.
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John 11:35 "Jesus Wept"
^Wanna know why? Because of the close minded, cold hearted, hypocritical, judgmental, so called Christian believers that throw old testament verses around to condemn true love (because they don't know what it is).
So here's to you and your ignorance! I hope you get bacon for valentines day (because we all know it is the best thing ever, EVER!) Enjoy NOT eating it. Oh and I REALLY hope you didn't watch the Superbowl. That is just unclean. Throwing pig carcass around like that. SINNERS!
Leviticus 11:7-8
And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.
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Being unclean is not the same as sinning. Those laws concerning cleanliness were about hygiene. I would encourage you to actually read the Bible.
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Likewise, anonymous. Here's a little bit of knowledge for you:
The scriptures "condemning" homosexuality are not as cut-and-dry as you think. The Hebrew word for "abomination" in Leviticus 18:22 (after being translated dozens of times across many languages), actually means "not customary." So yes, according to the Bible, it was not customary for a man to lie with a man as with a woman. Now look at the historical context: the Hebrews had a very small population and needed to procreate or face extinction. Homosexual relations would not contribute to this procreation, so it was listed in the list of "non-customary" behaviors so people would seek out different-sex mates and make babies. It's not about evil. It's about surviving as a population when they faced the risk of annihilation.
With the world's current overpopulation, we gays are actually doing you straight people a favor. You're welcome.
And don't even get me started on Sodom and Gomorrah.
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Nanner, the New Testament also says that homosexuality is unnatural, contrary to sound doctrine, vile, unseemly and in error. Sodom and Gomorrah are referenced more than 50 times throughout the Bible as examples of God's displeasure with what went on there. Trick question - what WERE the original sins of Sodom and Gomorrah? It wasn't homosexuality; that was simply the outworking.
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Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't about homosexuality at all. It was about being welcoming to outsiders. Judaic law took seriously the mandate that people extend hospitality to visitors. Sodom and Gomorrah were overflowing with greed and wickedness. When the angels came to Lot's house, the citizens of Sodom tried to assault and rape them. So God destroyed the cities.
This story isn't about homosexuality. It's *definitely* not about the loving relationships that modern society is talking about. The sinful sexual acts described in Romans were based on lust and greed. Those relations were evil because they weren't based on the principles of love and faithfulness, but just on the pursuit of physical pleasure. And sex wasn't the reason the cities were cast down; the blind pursuit of pleasure and the assault of strangers were.
This story is about being kind to strangers, about having hospitality toward those who aren't just like you. This was the dominant interpretation of this story by nearly all scholars until about 1900 when this weird strand of biblical literalism went mainstream.
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Yeah... Sodom and Gommorah was about God being pissed that man was trying to rape angels.
BUT! You can fix that by letting them rape your daughters. Which is why the Bible will always be right and a functional way to teach modern humans how to live their day to day lives!
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AK87 - Just because something happens in the Bible, doesn't mean God approves of it. And God reproved Lot in Peter's epistles.
In Ezekiel Sodom's sins are pride, fullness of bread and abundance of idleness. Everything else stems from that. Homosexuals (and sinners of every other stripe, including myself) were sinners on their way to hell long before they kissed someone of the same gender.
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The whole "anonymous" thing makes this feel silly, since I could be talking to a handful of people posting under the same non-name, but can seriously Anon - what is your definition of judgment? Anyone, feel free to through some definitions out here. What do you all think is meant by "Judge not lest ye be judged?"
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*throw some definitions. This is what I get for posting while on flu meds. =P
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I think it means exactly what THE REST OF THE CONTEXT SAYS:
"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
Go ahead and judge me for being homosexual. I will be found innocent. Keep reading the rest of the passage. Every immoral, unsaved person parrots that verse out but could probably never find it in the Bible if they were handed one, much less knows what the next several verses say. Hypocrisy.
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You're judging that immoral, unsaved people couldn't find it in the Bible.
How about this one? It's really easy for bigoted and scared (and yeah, that's me judging) "Christians" to find Leviticus 18:22 but how easy is it for them to find the story of David and Jonathan. The Aramaic version of their story uses the word rahk-maw-hi to describe them, which in case you don't speak Jesus' native tongue means "lovers."
There's another passage in Esther where women swear their lives to each other (which I can't find at the moment, perhaps its because I've sinned too much).
But regardless. If you're trying to 'save' anyone here, you've worn out your welcome. I have completely reconsicled my sexuality with God and who is some chump on some stupid message board to tell me what I have heard myself in silent prayer. You really underestimate God and put him in a box and I think YOU need to spend some time in prayer.
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Jochebed, many people on here have thrown out scripture that suggests there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. The bible is full of conflicting crap, and haters like you can pick and choose what to quote to serve their cause.
Why don't you just live your life and leave people to live their own? Is that so difficult for you?
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The rest of the context includes "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?" It may be even more relevant because my speck and your log can more clearly be different sins so only a sinless person should be trying to make other people change their ways.
The reaper will separate the wheat from the chaff, and the shepherd will separate the sheep from the goats. We're told not to judge for ourselves who will go to heaven and who will go to hell because God is ineffable and unknowable and judgments are meant to be left to him.
Why would you think I am not familiar with the bible? Why would you assume I am immoral or unsaved, or a hypocrite? Are these not judgments against me or others on this forum? Maybe you know me or the others personally and I just do not realize because I do not know who I am talking to, but otherwise it seems like you are making some pretty wild and uninformed assumptions about us.
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The rest of the context includes "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?" It may be even more relevant because my speck and your log can more clearly be different sins so only a sinless person should be trying to make other people change their ways.
The reaper will separate the wheat from the chaff, and the shepherd will separate the sheep from the goats. We're told not to judge for ourselves who will go to heaven and who will go to hell because God is ineffable and unknowable and judgments are meant to be left to him.
Why would you think I am not familiar with the bible? Why would you assume I am immoral or unsaved, or a hypocrite? Are these not judgments against me or others on this forum? Maybe you know me or the others personally and I just do not realize because I do not know who I am talking to, but otherwise it seems like you are making some pretty wild and uninformed assumptions about us.
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"You're judging that immoral, unsaved people couldn't find it in the Bible." - Yes, I am.
"The Aramaic version of their story uses the word rahk-maw-hi to describe them, which in case you don't speak Jesus' native tongue means "lovers." - The Aramaic version? Really? I Samuel wasn't even written in Aramaic. It was originally written in Hebrew like the rest of the Old Testament. And you certainly don't speak Aramaic either.
"There's another passage in Esther where women swear their lives to each other (which I can't find at the moment, perhaps its because I've sinned too much)." - Perhaps that is the reason as the story you're attempting to reference is not found in Esther at all, but in Ruth. Ruth vows herself to follow her mother-in-law Naomi/Mara back into Israel from the land of Moab. It has no sexual implications at all, as evidenced by the fact that she's married to Boaz by the end of the book.
"But regardless. If you're trying to 'save' anyone here, you've worn out your welcome." - My welcome is the same as yours. If you don't want me to express my opinion here, don't express yours. So long as all people are free to post their beliefs, I will post mine. That's true tolerance.
"Jochebed, many people on here have thrown out scripture that suggests there is nothing wrong with homosexuality." - None, actually.
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Like I said "...you can pick and choose what to quote to serve their cause." It's okay, I'm certain I live a much more wholesome life than you ever will. Have a happy valentine's day.
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"many people on here have thrown out scripture" - AKBacker, you're exactly right about people that "pick and choose what to quote to serve their cause". But it's only wrong for "haters" to do so. How tolerant.
Thanks, but I have no interest in the paganism of Valentine's Day.
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"many people on here have thrown out scripture" - AKBacker, you're exactly right about people that "pick and choose what to quote to serve their cause". But it's only wrong for "haters" to do so. How tolerant.
Thanks, but I have no interest in the paganism of Valentine's Day.
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Jochebed, you notice the FIRST comment on this feed is from someone throwing out a bible reference. Completely unneccessary!
And you throw around paganism like it's some terrible thing! Are you on a crusade or something? The only reason "paganism" has any negative connotation is as a result of Christianity.
The thing I fail to understand is why you can't just let people live their lives. Why is it necessary for bible thumpers to come out and "SAVE" people? Instead, you all come on here and issue your warnings to folks and tarnish a really nice article.
The same thing happens with any article written about Christianity or Christ or church. I've seen people go into those forums and bash them too. I'm a realist. I accept that there are many other people who don't share my views. But I NEVER issue "don't say I didn't tell you so" comments about my beliefs. And I never suggest things are "my way or the highway," which is exactly what you're doing. It's just obnoxious!
Oh, excuse me...it's Jesus's way or the highway. Shame on me. I'm sure I'll burn in hell for that one.
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"Completely unneccessary!" - In what way? Because you don't like to read it? Well, I didn't like reading this article, so we're even.
"And you throw around paganism like it's some terrible thing!" - It is.
"Why is it necessary for bible thumpers to come out and "SAVE" people?" - We are commanded to do so by Jesus Christ. And besides that, as long as you and the author of this letter get to exercise your right to free speech, I get to do the same. If you want my views silenced, that's fine with me - as long as yours are silenced as well.
"Oh, excuse me...it's Jesus's way or the highway. Shame on me. I'm sure I'll burn in hell for that one." - Unless you get saved, yes you will.
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If you didn't like reading the article, then why did you read it? You could have stopped two sentences in!
The only reason paganism is considered terrible is because of Christians like yourself. Do you know anything about paganism, or have you confined yourself to your own book for your whole life?
I don't want your views silenced, but I'm so glad you're trying to SAVE all of the heathens commenting!
And, as far as Jesus's way...I am quaking in my boots... so I'm going to burn in hell...with all of the Buddhists, Muslims and Jews of the world. I guess they're ALL wrong about the origin of man and how one should live his or her life. This is my biggest problem with Christianity. Your book is the right book,and Christians, as a whole (not all of them) are the WORST about this. Practicing any other religion will result in your being cast into hell and/or eternal damnation. Never have I had a Muslim or Buddhist (and certainly not a Jew - you know, like Jesus) tell me in a public OR private forum that I'm going to hell because I don't practice their religion. It's so ARROGANT.
Keep throwing your 15% at an obscenely outdated book. Keep commenting on articles you don't like to read. The world's Muslim population will soon be surpassing Christianity. I dunno, maybe they'll be more embracing of other people's views. I sure hope so.
Again, happy Valentine's Day.
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Yes because Muslims so are tolerant, they'll just behead you for being gay, they wont commit the awful act of commenting on a message board.
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Yes, let's just exude ignorance and throw all Muslims into that category. What an educated thing to say.
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You just did the same thing to Christians and the Muslims that practice or wish to practice Sharia law are hardly a minority of the population. It's a barbaric religion that has refused to join the 21st century. We must pray that the Middle East can find Jesus Christ and obtain salvation.
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"If you didn't like reading the article, then why did you read it? You could have stopped two sentences in!" - Why did you read my comments? Seems we both simply have an interest in these issues and read things pertaining to them. I don't attempt to shelter my life entirely from things I find offensive.
"The only reason paganism is considered terrible is because of Christians like yourself. Do you know anything about paganism, or have you confined yourself to your own book for your whole life?" Careful, are you trying to stereotype me into the Christian box you've created in your mind? In fact, for 4 years of my life I self-identified as Wiccan. Praise God I was saved out of that darkness by the marvelous light of Jesus Christ 5 years ago. I know more than you closed-mindedly assume.
"and certainly not a Jew - you know, like Jesus" - considering that Jews crucified Jesus, I wouldn't expect them to be all that similar.
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Jochebed, I read your comments because I was interested in the article. Earlier, you even stated that you didn't like reading the article. Why didn't you just stop and leave it alone? Instead, you chose to stir the pot.
Fair enough on stereotyping you into the Christian box. I'll give you that for your Wiccan background. I respect a person's will to practice such a thing, but that is some weird stuff and I don't blame you.
You make the point that Jews crucified Jesus...fine. But Christians were also responsible for their own atrocities (the Crusades, for instance). And Jesus was a Jew. But you still have not addressed my point about all of the other religions in the world. Do you just feel they are all wrong? Do you feel that everyone who is not a Christian, or who does not follow the same belief system is going to hell? (I would honestly like to know)
I just fail to understand why its necessary for anyone to preach their religion as though it is THE religion. I think it's extremely arrogant. I don't say that to insult, I say that because I can take a step back and observe the situation from a non-religious perspective and it looks that way to me. Not all who practice religion (and who don't, for that matter) can do the same.
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Mr. Tolerant,
Catholics did the Crusades, not "Christians."
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"Do you just feel they are all wrong? Do you feel that everyone who is not a Christian, or who does not follow the same belief system is going to hell?" - Yes, I do. Jesus Christ is THE way, THE truth and THE life. There are not many paths to higher truth. There is one path and one truth and it is as narrow as one man - Jesus Christ. And thank you to Anonymous for saying what I was thinking.
"I just fail to understand why its necessary for anyone to preach their religion as though it is THE religion. I think it's extremely arrogant." - If you can, try to imagine for a moment that you believe there is a literal burning hell where people go to spend eternity if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and His atoning death on the cross. If you truly believed that, which would be the greater offense - NOT to tell others, or to try to proclaim that truth to lost people so that they might avoid that terrible fate?
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Fair enough, Jochebed. There is obviously much we disagree on, but I credit you for sticking to your guns, so to speak.
As for Anonymous, though, Catholics are Christians - like it or not. I'm not going to banter back and forth on this one. Deny all you want, but most modern branches of Christianity are rooted in Catholocism. You can choose your interpretations of what you consider as fact from the bible, but this is well documented fact from thousands of different sources.
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I can't help but feel that the Lord is getting misrepresented by all sides here. The Lord loves you all and hates to see this fighting. If you act on gay impulses that is sin but it does not make you unredeemable. Jesus saved everyone and sacrificed himself so that his blood would become the sin offering for all of mankind. Your sins no matter what they are or how great can be forgiven. The Lord expects us to give it the 'ol college try to avoid sin but he knows that all men eventually will fail. Place your faith in Him and with repentance everyone is forgiven.
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Pokejesus I choose you http://www.todaysbigthing.com/music/2011/02/09
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I didn't realize anyone was ignorant enough to believe in god anymore. I believe in science.
When I do good, I feel good. That's my religion
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" i believe in science " well mr. science guy , you are
the real ignorant one because the BIBLE says : A FOOL SAYS IN HIS HEART THERE IS NO GOD . You even have your own holiday to celebrate along with your fellow atheists : APRIL FOOLS DAY ! You do believe in a " god " of your own design. one that doesn't put any demands on you so you can continue to live a life of sin ! your " god " will never condemn you and put any demands on you ! my advice : check out the GOD OF ABRAHAM .ISAAC & JACOB and see if HE is not the real thing !
read JOHN 3 > ZERO IN ON VS 18 !!
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I think I'm enough of a big boy to know the difference between right and wrong without having to read it in a book. If that's your thing, that's cool, it's just not mine.
I do find the folks on here in Jesus's corner kind of funny. I'd love to see a study done on the effectiveness of throwing out warnings with scripture to folks who care to read an article about homosexuality. I'd venture to guess you alienate more people than you "convert." I'm willing to admit I could be wrong on this. But not everyone on here seems to be willing to do the same - which is why folks like you turned me off two decades ago. Think about how many others you've turned off. You lost me a long time ago, and until the church(es) change their ways, you'll continue to lose people...the more free-thinking ones, at least.
Food for thought to all of you out there trying to be good Christians.
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Thankfully, Jesus already addressed that:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it. (Mt. 7:14)
Salvation is not a numbers game.
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The Puerto Rico simile was gold! Very funny.
And I wish you a wonderful Valentine's Day - who ever you love, I hope it's special. At least you aren't celebrating Single's Awareness Day, like some of us.
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Way to go, Brick.
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Why has the CT left this story on the top of the web page, instead of letting it fall when newer columns came out this morning? Gee I wonder. I read the CT everyday for years and have never seen this happen before, until this gay column.
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You know, this would be a good place to apply Occam's Razor and not trump up a totally fake and paranoid political agenda.
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Don't be gay. Point to one other time an opinion column has been given such exposure by the CT.
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There actually have been several. It's been a couple years though. Most don't take off with comments like this one did though.
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The Bible is a bunch of heresy anyways, how can you really put your belief in a book that needed a revision?
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heresy ? i think not !! / i know not !
let me suggest you spend some time in GOD'S word especially towards the book of JOHN and ROMANS .JOHN is a " LOVE " book explaining that GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS only son to die for us and for those who believe in HIS redemptive work on the cross they will not perish but have eternal life.
it is not something you have to work for, but is a " free " gift thru faith as EPHESIANS 2 : 8 & 9 explains.
once you get the " hang " of this , you will understand that this BIBLE and it's GOSPEL message has the power to transform and save your life from darkness to light. the " god " of this age > SATAN, has blinded many from the " truth " and is trying to blow out the light of the gospel. i implore you to read this marvelous book that the creator of the universe has given us to direct us as sort of a " GPS " system while we are still on this earth. BIBLE : BASIC INSTRUCTION BEFORE LEAVING EARTH.
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I would just like to point out as a member of Virginia Tech's LGBTA that I am aware of several members who are in fact cadets. The article addresses the difficulties faced by members of the LGBTQ community in overcoming stereotypes and generalizations, so I don't feel that it is particularly considerate place them all in the same category either. I am aware of the stance the military generally takes on homosexuality and I understand why that would be off-putting but to assume that because someone is in uniform they are judging you and your relationship is a bit hypocritical. That is my only objection to an otherwise well-written and thoughtful article. To clarify, I am against all stereotypes and generalizations, whether they come from religious zealots or from members of what I have come to know as my second family. I just hope that people on both sides of the issues at hand can put aside their prejudices and take an honest look at eachother. Maybe then we can put aside this petty bickering.
And I also hope things work out for Sara and her valentine. :]
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May you find and know the Lord's love. I pray that you will come to know Him and place your faith in him. You can be saved through repentance and prayer and I hope you heed these words.
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Well, you keep right on praying.
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