Letter: Condolences from PSU students
Letter to the editor
Monday, December 10; 6:11 PM
Editor's note: Two Penn State University students dressed up as April 16 shooting victims for Halloween, and since then have received a tremendous amount of backlash. Below is a letter to the editor from the Penn State student association.
Dear Students of Virginia Tech,
On behalf of the student body of Penn State, we extend our continued support of Virginia Tech and the Blacksburg community.
Please do not allow the actions of two individuals to overshadow the outpouring of compassion that has come from Penn Staters over the last several months. These individuals do not represent the Nittany Lion nation and we fully condemn their actions, which in no way reflect the unwavering support from our student body for the victims, families and friends at Virginia Tech.
Our sincerest sympathies are with all Hokies and as president of the Penn State undergraduate student body, please accept my most sincere apologies and please know that Penn State still holds the utmost respect for those connected to Virginia Tech.
Hillary Lewis, President of the University Park Undergraduate Association
Posted by: Kyle Minor at 12/27/07
Mr. Shirley, please indulge me: if Virginia Tech offers a 'fake experience of learning,' please provide me with an example of an 'authentic' experience of learning. Perhaps you might assert that Ivy League schools offer such an educational experience; I contend that they do not, and that instead they offer the same sort of 'factory' mentality you seem to think Tech offers. Keep in mind that no institution can ever force its students to learn; indeed, the quality of the education is limited instead by the willingness of the students to learn. I, personally, don't feel like I am the product of some 'learning factory;' my educational experience (which will wrap up in May) has been one that I have tailored uniquely to myself which has been augmented by the compassionate and impassioned support offered by my professors. Are there kooks at Tech? Sure. Are there incompetent people? Probably. Does that invalidate the quality of the education I have received? Not in the slightest.
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Posted by: Dave at 12/20/07
Morris-
November 2007 issue of ARCHITECT Magazine: Virginia Tech undergraduate architecture program ranked #1 in the nation. Virginia Tech graduate architecture program ranked #5 in the nation and #1 among public universities. Not bad for a total charade...
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/19/07
Well if VT isn't learnin' its students good in the classroom, what do you reckon we do other'n post to this hear message bored to try to improve usselves through deebate? We's havin' to take matters into hour own hands.
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Posted by: Morris Shirley at 12/18/07
The fact is that Virginia Tech is a giant factory school that apart from its math and science departments fosters a fake experience of learning, a total charade. Same with Penn State. Both schools are big, bureaucratic, and inhumane, as much as we have come to accept these flaws in our institutions, and care more about growth and prestige and their beloved football teams than real learning, which no one much remembers anymore. There's as much inhumanity in the bimbo who flips open her cell phone in the middle of class as the shooter who opens up in a rampage, as well as in the idiots who get caught up in a media firestorm for dressing up like the VT victims. Where you have stupidity and inhumanity you have violence sooner or later, and in America's colleges you have both. Just look at this stupid discussion, which has finally boiled down to: 'don't you have anything better to do than post here?' As if the same idiot weren't himself posting. I say: keep it up. You're doing yourselves and humanity a real service.
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/17/07
I'll argue un-anonymously with you then. As I've mentioned below, the reason that these message boards go off on tangents is because there is no way to start a new thread. Apparently the issues aren't completely unrelated. We did get here from there somehow, after all. Also, most of the postings referring to gun control have some sort of handle, so are not completely anonymous. I think you should find something better to do than to post anonymously on a message board telling others how to use their time. By the way, how are you focusing on the issue at hand? I can't tell because I'm not sure which, if any, of the other anonymous postings are yours.
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Posted by: at 12/17/07
I think you people should find something better to do with your time than to argue anonymously on the internet about essentially unrelated issues to the article. Debates and arguments about gun control belong somewhere else. Don't bother those of us focusing on the issue at hand with your overplayed arguments.
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/15/07
Dave, same here. I think the fact that you are not a gun owner makes your perspective even more significant.
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Posted by: Dave at 12/15/07
Here's one for you T Allen, since you want to play this game-
This tragedy happened a little over a year ago. No guns involved. Just an auto accident just like ones that happen every day... Because of ineffective car laws????
3 Franklin Boy Scouts, leader killed driving home from camp
© November 5, 2006
By STEVE STONE, LINDA McNATTAND DAVE FORSTER
The Virginian-Pilot
SOUTHAMPTON COUNTY — Three Boy Scouts and one of their troop leaders died in a fiery wreck Sunday after the sport utility vehicle they were in ran off a road and struck a tree.
All of the victims were affiliated with Troop 17 of Franklin and were returning home from a weekend scouting event in Blackstone, a city about 75 miles northwest of Franklin.
Sgt. D.S. Carr, a State Police spokesman, said a fourth Scout, the driver’s son, managed to pull himself from the burning vehicle and is hospitalized.
“This is just such a tragic loss,” said Carr, who was at the scene of the crash on the edge of Sebrell, a small community of a few dozen homes in Southampton County.
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Posted by: Dave at 12/15/07
Jason T- Again I say - AMEN! I'm glad that not everyone has lost their minds!
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Posted by: Dave at 12/15/07
T Allen- Did you even read my post?? Perhaps you're mixing me up with DALE MURPHY to whom I was responding? Read it again... I did, and I never said anything that could be construed as a threat. I DO NOT OWN A GUN! Although I DO have 10 fingers...
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Posted by: Dave at 12/15/07
T Allen- I was responding to Dale Murphy's post : "If I point my finger at you - nothing happens. If I point a gun at you - something very different happens. That's because of the GUN." I wasn't trying to threaten anyone, including him. I've never even owned a gun. I was merely trying to point out the absurdity of his statement (read for yourself). You make absolutely no sense, and the more you write, the clearer that becomes.
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/15/07
T Allen, the point Dave is making is that guns are made for killing and everyone knows that. In essence, this makes it more horrific when something with a far different purpose is used for killing. Tell me you weren't shocked when an airplane was used as a missile, or fertilizer was used to bomb a federal building. The truth is that we don't know what might kill us next. In a society, we have to place a certain amount of trust in our fellow citizens that they do not want to harm or be harmed. We do it every day. We interact with thousands upon thousands of people who are doing what we're doing: just trying to carve out a living. I agree that gun ownership should be regulated, as you do. But until we find a way to end violence, I will continue to do whatever it takes to comply with regulations and own a gun as a last resort to protect myself from any who might attempt to do me harm.
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/15/07
T Allen, that is not the answer to Dave's question. When someone poses a hypothetical, it is not correct to just say, "well that didn't happen so you're wrong." A hypothetical can not be wrong. Personally, I don't disagree with you about a gun's purpose, and many of us have no problem with reasonable regulations. But you seem to want all guns to just magically disappear. This is a disservice to your cause. To enact change, you have to have the vision to see how that change can reasonably occur within the constraints of our society. TELL ME HOW YOU WOULD DO THIS. The regulations we currently have don't even work, so how would you ensure that additional ones would? I'm all ears. I'm not saying the system isn't flawed, but what do you propose we do about it? Stop providing us with examples of the evils of guns and take action. Write your representative with the framework for a comprehensive bill that would appropriately regulate guns, while ensuring that the illegal ownership and transfer of weapons is severely minimized. Until you do that, your examples, while truly unfortunate, are nothing more than a whine. As for 911, how long does it take for someone to murder you? How long does it take for the police to be dispatched to your house? Part of the reason you have a right to defend yourself is that you can't rely on the police to do that. It is not their purpose; they are reactive. Finally, most gun owners DON'T want to intimidate. A weapon purchased for self-defense is like an insurance policy: there when you need it, but let's hope you don't need it. Last but not least, I am not a bro, pal.
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Posted by: Phil King at 12/15/07
News Flash: One of the Penn State dudes has been fired from his job at Bank of America
[at the request of Bank of America] because they want no association with the foolishness.
I'd suggest this be a lesson to all of you here - your actions catch up with you - so watch what you do in this world. Think before you act like an a-s-s.
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Posted by: T Allen at 12/15/07
Woa Dave! Your posting sounds a little threatening??? The answer to your questions was that Cho didn't use a car to run down 30 or 40 people on the Drillfield. Therefore it is irrelevant to the discussion. And no - we wouldn't have this conversation because cars by their very scientific + practical function are manufactured as a mode of transportation.
GUNS - on the other hand are designed and manufactured for ONE AND ONLY ONE REASON - THAT IS TO KILL - WHETHER IT BE HUNTING OR SELF-DEFENSE OR MURDER - GUNS ARE A SPECIFIC DEVISE MADE FOR THAT SOLE PURPOSE - TO KILL. THAT MY FRIEND IS THE FACT - it's funny how people here talk their way around of the facts by trying to insert all manner of distraction. GUNS ARE MADE FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF KILLING. That's why they need the highest degree of legal regulation. Sorry you don't want to hear it - but it is true. And don't you ever 'suggest' that it's about pointing a gun at me [sonds like something a gun owner would do - they are a tool for tools who like to intimidate...911 is a dial away, bro.
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Posted by: T Allen at 12/15/07
And a little local event just to demonstrate how vast and varied the problem is:
CHRISTIANSBURG -- A Virginia Tech student was found in his car in the Target parking lot here Sunday morning, dead of a gunshot wound to the head, Christiansburg police and Tech officials confirmed Friday.
Christiansburg police Capt. Barry O'Rourke said no foul play is suspected, and a spokeswoman for the Roanoke medical examiner's office said the wound was consistent with a suicide.
Tech spokesman Larry Hincker confirmed the student was Daniel Sun Kim, a third-year math major from Reston who was an American citizen of Korean descent.
A Korean newspaper, however, reported in its Friday edition that members of Kim's family dispute that his death was a suicide. The Korea Times' report also posed the question of whether Kim's Korean background had something to do with his death.
Seung-Hui Cho, the Tech student who killed 32 students and faculty members before killing himself on April 16, was Korean.
Hincker provided extended details about Kim on Friday.
Hincker said the university received an e-mail tip last month from a person purporting to be Kim's friend who said he was concerned about Kim and that Kim had a gun. He said the case was referred to the university's care team, a group of officials that meets regularly to discuss troubled students. After identifying that the student lived off campus, the care team asked Blacksburg police to check on Kim at his residence.
Blacksburg police Capt. Bruce Bradbery said an officer went to Kim's home about 11:30 a.m. Nov. 5 to talk with him. Kim appeared to be OK and said he didn't know the person who had sent the e-mail, Bradbery said.
Tech's police department did a background check on Kim and discovered that there was no report of him owning a gun, Hincker said. That was the extent of the university's involvement with the situation, Hincker said. Kim was not referred to the university's newly formed threat assessment team -- organized after the April 16 shootings to deal with students who could pose a threat to themselves or others.
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Posted by: T Allen at 12/15/07
A role model is cut down A stray bullet took the life of a beloved N. Phila. figure.
By Vernon Clark
Inquirer Staff Writer
Across the street from the North Philadelphia grocery where Craig Young was working when he was cut down by a stray gunshot, relatives yesterday recalled him as a hard worker who was well-liked and respected in the neighborhood.
"I'm 72 years old, and I thought I would go before my children," said a tearful Florence Young, the man's mother, as she and relatives were going to make funeral arrangements.
Young, 41, was working as a clerk in the Yasmin Food Market at 23d and Jefferson Streets when a bullet pierced a window and struck him fatally in the left side of the chest about 5:40 p.m. Thursday, police said.
This isn't some academic exercise - this is a national crisis. It isn't about a spirited debate it's about facing it head on. Here's a few items from this morning's papers.
A ROLE MODEL IS CUT DOWN. A STRAY BULLET TOOK THE LIFE OF A BELOVED N. PHILA FIGURE: At least a half-dozen shots were exchanged outside the store, police said. There were no suspects, officials said.
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Posted by: Dave at 12/14/07
Jason T -
Amen!
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/14/07
T Allen, we get the point. There are some people who do stupid things with guns. Those of us who have replied to your arguments are analyzing data to show you that a vast majority of people are responsible with their guns. Our leaders can't afford to micromanage the country. It's absurd to create blanket anti-gun legislation because of a small number of idiots. Are current gun laws imperfect? Sure, and not to sound like a broken record, but tell me how you'd make it better. Remember, I demand that a solution must include not only laws, but specific enforcement measures to ensure that people who disobey are brought to justice, and that ALL channels, both legal and illegal, for guns are reduced to a trickle. As for the PSU students, coercing an apology makes it contrived. They already know that many people are appalled by what they did, and they have heard the arguments for why they shouldn't have done what they did. Now it's up to them whether they are compelled to apologize or not, and whether this incident will affect their behavior in the future.
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Posted by: sauerkraut at 12/14/07
Returning back to the letter of apology from PSU, and I also see a couple others from PSU'ers down below, we encourage anyone and everyone to apply some pressure to Nathan Jones and Jessica Maroclo to come forward and apologize for their thoughtlessness at Halloween. As someone has pointed out, Jones is using this as his 15 minutes of fame - all while claiming to be something ("infamous," "awesome," "flamboyant") that he surely is not. If someone knows of an URL wherein the television interview of Jones is shown, I will gladly post it on my blog at http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com Please note that I already have the radio interview he did with the lovely Lindsey Hernley (a VTU grad) on WSLS posted as a link.
It is time to hold Mr. Jones and Ms. Maroclo accountable for their inappropriate behavior. And remember, Penn State is your friend.
Okay, so T Allen and Dale Murphey, please feel free to beat that old horse, aka the 2nd Amendment. But remember, it's not about the guns, guns, guns or Cho. It's about the innocent lives Cho took on April 16. Never forget.
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Posted by: Dave at 12/14/07
Can't anyone come up with a decent response to this simple question?
If Cho couldn't get a gun, and instead mowed down 30-40 people on the Drillfield with his Toyota Camry, what would we be talking about right now?
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Posted by: Dave at 12/14/07
The last person who was bludgeoned to death with a crowbar is no doubt pleasantly surprised that the "people kill people argument is null and void if you take the gun out of their hands"
THINK PEOPLE!
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Posted by: Dave at 12/14/07
What if you don't point your finger OR a gun at me or anyone else? The gun DOES NOT point itself. The gun is pointed in my direction because of YOU. In any case, not much happens when YOU point the gun at me until YOU pull the trigger. You still haven't answered my question because you can't. I KNOW he DIDN'T run people over with his car on the Drillfield. My questions remains - if he had done that WHAT would we be talking about right now??
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Posted by: T Allen at 12/14/07
Cho didn't buy a Toyota Camry and run down innocent people on the Drillfield. What Cho did was use the miserably managed, ill-informed, dangerous CURRENT GUN LAWS to buy guns, shoot and murder people. It's about the GUNS people. Guns. Guns. Guns.
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Posted by: Dale Murphey at 12/14/07
If I point my finger at you - nothing happens.
If I point a gun at you - something very different happens.
That's because of the GUN.
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Posted by: T Allen at 12/14/07
The people kill people argument is null and void if you take the gun out of their hands.
Here's an interesting use of a legally armed handgun: Today's newspaper:
A man who apparently was shooting at a stray dog struck a woman in the leg instead Friday, and she was transported to a hospital in fair condition.
Her injury is not believed to be life-threatening. The man, who was standing about 30 to 40 yards away when he fired the shot, ran away, Officer Leland Ashley said.
Witnesses did not get a good look at the man, so only a vague description was available.
The shooting happened about 11 a.m. in front of a home in the 500 block of East 55th Place North.
The woman, who was in her late 40s to early 50s, was standing in front of her mother's home taking a picture of storm damage, Ashley said.
Witnesses said it appeared the man was shooting at a stray dog with a small-caliber handgun. It was not immediately clear whether the bullet ricocheted before it struck her, Ashley said.
The dog apparently was in the same area where the woman and her mother were standing.
One can expect it would be pretty rare that this would have happened with a Toyota Camry. You kids just can't argue your way out of the fact that current gun laws are flawed. You can't. Your metaphors and comparisons don't hold water. I need someone to prove to me that giving easy access to guns BENEFITS society. Show me the proof. So far, no one can.
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Posted by: Talking about at 12/14/07
We should be talking about the Penn State students that decided it was a good idea to poke fun at a tragedy.
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Posted by: Dave at 12/14/07
ANYTHING can be used to kill people. That's just it - the problem isn't the thing used, its the person using it. PEOPLE kill people. They've been doing it since the beginning of time! If you take the person with the will and intent to kill out of the equation, a gun is as harmless as your car when its parked in your garage. I'll pose my question again: If Cho couldn't get a gun, and instead mowed down 30-40 people on the Drillfield with his Toyota Camry, what would we be talking about right now?
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Posted by: at 12/14/07
Your car analogy is flawed. Yes, cars can be used to kill people but it is hardly their primary use. What use does a gun have, aside from distruction?
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Posted by: at 12/14/07
I am a VT alum and current Penn State student. The feeling up here about all this is that a few students left their common sense at the door on this one. Nathan Jones, the flamer that has become the spokesperson on the issue, is a hypocrite: http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2006/09/09-21-06tdc/09-21-06dnews-20.asp Also note that the girl's name is Jessica Maroclo, but I haven't heard anything from her about this. Nathan Jones has taken it upon himself to make this his fifteen minutes of fame, and besides this interview (http://www.collegeotr.com/pennsylvania_state_university/our_interview_with_nathan_jones_the_virginia_tech_shooting_victim__5718) that shows he is a self-righteous dope, but if you look around CNN you'll see a video of a CNN anchor interviewing him, and the interviewer just kills him. The guy ends up looking like such a jerk. A neat thing to try is to use 'jessica maroclo lostbookofrhythm' as a google search. There is an interesting email address right there in the search results. Also, many reports say she is a VA resident. A quick search of maroclo and va reveals a Gerald in va.
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Posted by: Dave at 12/14/07
And let's not forget - even the most careful law abiding driver sometimes injures or kills themselves or others. Waaay more frequently than your average law abiding gun owner. If Cho couldn't get a gun, and instead mowed down 30-40 people on the Drillfield with his Toyota Camry, what would we be talking about right now?
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Posted by: Dave at 12/14/07
Bruce- If this thread proves anything, its that everyone has an agenda. I do realize that the discussion did focus on guns, although not sure how it got there based on the apology letter about the two PSU students. It seems to me, in response to the PSU students, we should be discussing how to collect and outlaw insensitive idiots, although that would put us at odds with another one of those pesky Constitutional Amendments (1st). As it is, the discussion had already digressed to gun control before I entered "the room". I was just attempting to make a comparison based on other recent events right in Blacksburg. The fact is when you apply your logic to many other situations, it becomes painfully obvious how ridiculous it is. The FACT is that people in cars kill and maim many more people than people with guns. Happens EVERY day. Based on the gun control "logic", we should be looking seriously at restricting access to these dangerous "weapons". Being a careful, law abiding driver (I'm assuming you are), I'm sure you find this idea preposterous. About as preposterous as your average law abiding gun owner finds the gun control debate (i.e. hysteria). Think about it.
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/13/07
Mark C, don't forget that over half of gun deaths are suicides. These present no danger to another citizen, so they should be discounted when determining the likelihood that you will be a victim of gun violence. A person who commits suicide is not really a "victim" since they are fulfilling their own will.
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Posted by: BK at 12/13/07
This will be the third time I've posted this data on a gun debate in the CT. I'd like to know where Phillip is getting his info when he says, "The majority of guns in circulation by both law abiding citizens and criminals are obtained through what one might consider normal chanels - gun shows, pawn shops, gun shops, swaps, ebay, wal mart and other sources readily accessible by anyone with a driver's license."
According to the U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, only 14% of firearms used by criminal offenders came from a gun store, pawn shop, flea market, or gun show. That's certainly nowhere near "a majority", especially since 39% were obtained by illegal means and another 40% from family or friends. And gun shows, the subject of much hand wringing by the media and gun control advocates, accounted for only 0.7% of firearms used by criminal offenders.
Here's a link directly to the source:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/fuopr.htm
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Posted by: Mark C at 12/13/07
Jason you just barely beat me to the statistics 'game'. Here's my take on that issue. We're debating guns solely because bad things have happened to good people because of guns. I would argue that guns are the least of your worries. In the year 2000, 28,663 people died by firearm, 43,604 died by motor vehicle. It looks to me like you're twice as likely to be killed by a vehicle than a gun. Using the figures posted here previously, you're almost more likely to be killed by a motor vehicle than be a victim of gun violence. Others have said that cars, alcohol, cell phones, etc. aren't the reason for this debate. That's only true if you're debating the right to own a gun in and of itself. Once you use violence, death, etc. as justification for restricting that right, you open the door to those comparisons. Why should guns be more restricted than something that is apparently far more dangerous? This argument can not be won by the anti-gun movement on statistics alone. I believe it comes down to an individual's opinion that guns are 'scary', it's an emotional topic, not a numbers game. Personally I find this argument to be a great example of America shying away from personal responsibility. If someone does something stupid, they should be held accountable. I should NOT be held accountable for what someone else has done. A wise man once said 'if guns kill people, then I can blame my pencil for every word I misspell'. Get rid of criminals first, then I'll gladly hand over my gun.
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/13/07
Phillip, I am in complete agreement with the spirit of your comment, but I don't think others agree as much as you may think. T Allen, and by extension probably many others, believe that we have a sort of "Minority Report" dilemma. In the movie, law enforcement can predict future criminal actions and prevent them, but in reality, we can only speculate based on a person's past. Many people seem to believe that as long as we can't predict, with certainty, that a person will not commit a gun crime IN THE FUTURE, we shouldn't allow any private citizen to own guns. I disagree that an absolute policy disallowing all guns is the answer. As a brief side note, I take your point about the illegal gun trade being small, but I also wonder how accurate these estimates are. I'm curious to know how the data was collected and used to determine the size of the illegal market. Did you find answers to this question in your research (please don't take this the wrong way - I'm not belittling your comments, I'm genuinely curious - statistics without explanation of the methods used to create them are as meaningless as raw data)? Unless we can trace every gun from manufacture to its current location, we may only be seeing part of the picture.
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/13/07
This would be a great time to create a new thread elsewhere, but since we're confined to the single posting space here, apologies to those who would rather not read through these tangential ideas. Before I begin, I'd like to thank everyone for such a lively debate. I realize this is a touchy subject, and I just want to say that I realize there is no absolute correct answer, so I respect differences of opinion. That said, T Allen, raw numbers without interpretation are meaningless. 23,000 people accidentally shot themselves last year...out of roughly 59 million US gun owners, representing about 0.04% or 1 out of 2,500. Put into perspective, this is a very small problem. Also, to Bruce King, did you see Cho's manifesto videos? If guns were banned, I doubt he'd say, "Oh, guns are illegal now? I guess I'll put my deep-seeded hatred of my peers on the back burner and go watch TV." Simply put, where there's a will, there's a way. He didn't kill people because it was convenient to get a gun; he killed because he had an overwhelming urge to do so. Can you imagine the determination necessary to enact such a plot? He was willing to die for his beliefs. I'll say it again: until we can eliminate the malicious element in society, making guns illegal will be "treating" the symptom, not the disease. I say "treating" loosely because, as I've previously mentioned, I don't believe any politician (or any taxpayer) is willing to actually do what it would take to ensure the complete elimination of guns. For every million Cho's, there are tens of millions of responsible gun owners. If we take guns away, we are left with the same "million Cho's" who will find other means of accomplishing their goals. I think it's healthy that some people are as passionate about self-defense as the Cho's of the world are about violent aggression. As for the examples of other school violence, many of these K-12 shootings are enacted by children who are breaking the law by using their parents' guns, and their parents are breaking the law by allowing gun access to minors. This just furthers my argument about how meaningless laws are if you can't enforce them before there is bloodshed. I don't pretend to know what the best answer to this problem is, but I strongly believe that it doesn't lie in the attempted eradication of guns.
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Posted by: Phillip Musegman at 12/13/07
After doing a fairly deep dive into recent gun stats, law enforcement data actually shows that the black market for firearms is actually not that large, as numbers have fallen quite a bit over the past several years. The majority of guns in circulation by both law abiding citizens and criminals are obtained through what one might consider normal chanels - gun shows, pawn shops, gun shops, swaps, ebay, wal mart and other sources readily accessible by anyone with a driver's license.
It also seems that a majority of people - I'd suspect even those expressing very real concerns on the issue aren't advocating a complete ban on gun ownership, but a substantive and aggressive change to gun laws that would actually protect gun owners rights more. By this, I'm suggesting that it be really difficult to get your hands on a gun.
No one should just be able to pull into the parking lot of a gun shop, run in a get a gun by showing three forms of id - and I only use Cho as an example because that's all it took.
There should be a rigorous review process, stringent background checks, a psychological review - some sort of checks and balances through a process that proves a person's legal status, psychiatric condition, and capability to own a firearm. Then, if you are really a good guy who wants to own a gun to hunt or protect - you get to and you also can rest assured that many who are presently slipping through the system won't be able to.
It can work if we put the safe guards in place. If we want to go to the 'car' metaphor that so many here seem to gravitate toward - you have to take a driving test and you can fail.
Right now, getting a gun is as easy as getting sudafed at CVS. If you truly are responsible, you shouldn't mind taking extra precautions to safeguard your good name and to take many of the nuts out of the pipeline.
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Posted by: Bruce King at 12/13/07
Sorry for my typo in previous posting: ..."Cell phones aren't the issue being discussed"...I'm a lousy typist.
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Posted by: Bruce King at 12/13/07
Kids. Abortion isn't the issue being discussed. Cell phones are the issue being discussed. Booze and cars aren't the issue. The issue is the wholesale slaughter of so many at the hands of "legally recognized gun owners" - that's the issue. All you're doing is diverting the issue because you absolutely have no argument to support your point of view. If the facts posted here scare you...good. You should be afraid. There's a million Cho's walking around out there aright now and I'd guess I'll have another item lifted straight from the news to post today...it happens every single day. You can't ignore it . You can't talk your way out of it.
Sorry if that offends you. But it's the reality. I'm just presenting the FACTS.
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Posted by: T Allen at 12/13/07
Graham - I am so calm you don't need to be sarchastic. I'm merely presenting the facts and if they happen to fly in the face of the self-absorbed desires of gun owners then I'd have to feel I've accomplished something. I see little tinges of guilt in those postings. The other metaphores people are tossing out - irrelevant. And for the record - VA is backward in many ways. In NY, NJ and many other states it is now illegal to talk on your cellphone while driving + accident figures have dropped dramatically. So - it would seem that initiative has merits. Maybe YOU can suggest that to the VA Legislature. Your ban on cars comments are foolish and transparently the diversion of someone simply being sarchastic because you actually can't argue that the current gun laws work - they don't. We are failing as a society. Those of us who hold the mirror right in front of your face are reflecting what's wrong. So - Woa! Right back at ya, bro.
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Posted by: Hokie83 at 12/13/07
Jason T. has said what I believe that we all feel, and has done so eloquently. To hold the entire Penn State community somehow accountable for these 2 (or 3, or 4) people would be hypocrisy. We have said from the outset that this one deranged individual (Cho) who murdered so many on April 16 does not in any way, shape or form, represent the what we are about as a community. Apology accepted but absolutely unnecessary. We are a very strong community. We have obviously gone through a great deal and this tactless and thoughtless Halloween episode should not even amount to a bump in the road of our recovery, which, by the way, has been remarkable. Finally, the Second Amendment states, unequivocally, that individuals have the right to keep and bear arms. The portion about the militia is what could be called “dicta” in legal terms. It is a sort of an opinion on why the right exists. As we debate this important issue, let’s remember that the world has changed a great deal in 200 years, it may well change a great deal more over the next 200 years. Taking away our rights may not be the best idea. Once they are gone, you rarely get them back.
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Posted by: Dave at 12/12/07
A woman recently runs over a group of people in downtown Blacksburg after drinking, then driving while text messaging. How could this happen?!? What do we propose to ban first - cars, drinking or cell phones?? People kill themselves and others with their automobiles by the thousands EVERY year. Should we outlaw cars? (Cars aren't even mentioned in the Bill of Rights, so all the car owners don't even have that to fall back on...) Think of how we'll "prevent" "global warming" once the cars are gone! We can't manage to identify and collect the illegal immigrants in the US, and you see them walking down the street everyday. How are you going to identify and collect all the firearms (legal or illegal)?? Lastly, it never ceases to amaze me that some people insist that the second amendment is a false argument for gun ownership, while other people (often the same people) insist that abortion is a constitutionally protected right even though the Constitution makes no mention of it...
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/12/07
Ok, forget about the constitution. The issue is whether or not it makes sense to allow citizens to own guns in this country at this time. I maintain that it does. We are faced with the pre-existing reality that guns are prevalent in this country. To enact the type of legislative strategy that would successfully dry up the black market and collect all firearms within our borders seems to me very unlikely. Until our government devises a strategy to do so, I will not even consider supporting a gun ban in this country.
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Posted by: Graham at 12/12/07
Woahh, T. Allen... calm down. Take your argument to Capitol Hill. That's enough for the Collegiate Times message board!!
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Posted by: T Allen at 12/12/07
Let's not forget the facts. The Economist. April 19th, 2007:
"He bought a gun on February 9th, at a pawnshop, and another on March 16th, at a gun shop in a nearby town. Both sales were legal. Cho was a native South Korean, but he had lived in America since he was eight years old. His family owned a dry-cleaning business in northern Virginia. Cho was a legal, permanent resident. He showed the gun dealer three forms of identification: a Virginia driving licence, a cheque book with a matching address and an immigration card.
A quick background check showed he had no criminal record, so he was entitled, under Virginia law, to buy one gun each month. The gunshop owner insisted he found nothing suspicious about the clean-cut college boy." THIS IS THE REALITY IN AMERICA + IN VA. THIS IS WHY THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LEGAL AND ILLEGAL OWNERSHIP. THIS IS WHY THERE HAS TO BE CHANGE NOW.
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Posted by: T Allen at 12/12/07
From the CDC here are some outdated stats - but stats none the less that reveal a full 23,237 legal gun owners accidentally shot themselves or others in 2000. That figure piled on top of another 52,447 criminal acts of gun violence in 2000. So a full one third of those shooting incidents in 2000 were directly linked to 'legal' gun owners. Sounds like a pretty sad group of law abiding gun lovers are suffering the very ill they proclaim doesn't exist in this nation.
Fast forward to 2007 with the numbers mounting from VA Tech to Omaha to Las Vegas
and one can estimate they are markedly higher. To the pawn shop owner who sold the guns, Jason Cho 'legally' bought his guns. Kind of makes you think the law, the mindset and the system aren't quite in synch with reality - doesn't it?
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Posted by: T Allen at 12/12/07
Lookie here. Another one. Just this morning. God Bless Gun Loving America!
6 SHOT LEAVING VEGAS SCHOOL BUS: Tight security greeted high school students Wednesday as police searched for the gunmen who wounded six young people at a school bus stop, an attack that officials believe stemmed from a fight about a girl.
The six were wounded Tuesday shortly after a group of Mojave High School students got off a school bus in a working-class neighborhood in northeastern Las Vegas.
The investigation remained focused Wednesday at Mojave, but security also was increased elsewhere, said Clark County School District police Sgt. Ken Young.
"We've got extra officers at several high schools," Young said.
Police were search for at least two suspects. The attackers were believed to have fled the scene of the shooting on foot.
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Posted by: P. F. Landauo at 12/12/07
People - There's a little thing we call learning from the past: Lead paint was considered a "good idea" at one point. Asbestos was considered a "good idea" at one point. Smoking was considered an "acceptable idea" at one point. Catch my drift?
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Posted by: T Allen at 12/12/07
I am so sick and tired of the false argument that a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT - written in a completely different CONTEXT, MOMENT IN TIME and INTENT is manipulated TODAY by individuals who love guns. You are turning your back on the fact that gun violence is at an all time high and those crimes are being committed by younger and younger individuals - many of whom - based on law - would be considered law abiding citizens UNTIL they pull the trigger. And once you pull the trigger it's too late. Plain and simple. Cigs were considered OK by the populace until so many died from smoking them that people finally began to wake up to the facts. WAKE UP PEOPLE. YOU ARE KILLING ALL OF US. STOP THE MADNESS! STOP!!!
And for the record - only a fool would think legislation alone is the answer. Of course it isn't - it's call confiscate and destroy any and every weapon that is involved in a crime, shut down pawn shops and retailers unless they are STRICTLY MONITORED, no guns should be sold online...you won't get every gun but if you can eliminate 50% you've come a long way baby.
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Posted by: Dan at 12/12/07
I am not here to argue first or second amendment rights; I'd just like to extend a personal apology. I'm a 2007 Penn State grad, and I wish this had never happened. I would write a letter, but the UPUA president has done that, so to anyone reading this, I am sincerely sorry, and I know I'm not alone. Please know that the majority of Penn State students and alumni don't find this amusing in any way. I wish you nothing but peace, and I give you my respect and sympathy.
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Posted by: Dave at 12/12/07
Some of the same arguments were no doubt used to justify Prohibition too. If you want to see people (especially students) wake up and pay attention, try proposing a ban on alcohol. Is the recreation of a "few" really worth all the lives lost to drunk driving and alcohol poisoning?? What about all those under 21 people who still manage to find a way to obtain alcohol? Take a ride on the BT any Friday night, and you'll be reminded how effective THAT law is. Jason T makes a good argument using the speed limit example, but the alcohol example might hit even closer to home.
Stop worrying about those 2? PSU students. They've "made their bed", and just about everyone can see how inane their actions were. They did it for "shock value" (so they said), and our outrage only prolongs the attention they were seeking in the first place.
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/12/07
One more thought: A law is only as good as (1) its enforcement, and (2) the will of the people to obey it. These two items are frequently intertwined. When enforcement is minimal, the will often becomes weaker. Speed limits are an example of minimal enforcement, prohibition of minimal will. I hear a lot of chatter about the need to LEGISLATE against gun ownership, but I have yet to hear how anti-gun folks plan to ENFORCE the eradication of guns, including illegally owned ones. The reason guns are owned illegally in the first place is because we can't even enforce the laws we currently have. How, then, are we to expect successful enforcement of a complete ban on guns? If you legislate without enforcement, only those who's will to own a gun is outweighed by their law-abidingness will be deterred. These are the so-called "good guys" - those who are the least likely to use a gun violently because of the very respect for the law that would render them unarmed.
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/12/07
To logical thinker: Thank you for the sarcasm and condescendance. I have read the 2nd amendment, and there is a case to be made for both your interpretation and mine, as the numerous conflicting court decisions have shown over the years. Also, I didn't fail to address your other point; I mentioned that many crimes are likely committed with illegally obtained weapons. More to the point, it would be logical to ask whether the benefits (in terms of saved lives, averted crimes, etc.) of people legally owning weapons for self-defense outweighs the cost of people getting a gun legally then going nutso. I tend to think that the former happens substantially more often than the latter, but I don't have the data to back it up. In any case, that's the sort of analysis I'd like to see from a logical thinker.
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Posted by: Al Jolson at 12/12/07
Well there goes my idea to go as a Branch Davidian next Halloween.
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Posted by: logical thinker at 12/11/07
Actually, Jason T.....The "problem", as you put it, i actually not with law-abiding citizens arming themselves for defensive and recreactional purposes! you are correct, congratulations. The "PROBLEM" is with "citizens that are law-abiding that are permitted to obtain legally purchased firearms and them attack the masses". What you fail to point out is that your defense and recreation also allows a good number of citizen (who didn't commit crimes to that point) the opportunity to attack maim and kill other law abiding citizens that don't think you have a right to own a gun. Read the 2nd ammendment...militias have a right not individuals. Gotta start somewhere.
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Posted by: Chris at 12/11/07
What more than an apology can we ask for? The actions of these two individuals are not the responsibility of the entire PSU student body. As you all know, neither the law nor PSU can punish them. There's nothing more to be done on this front. As for our societal ills, that's another story...
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/11/07
T Allen, I agree with your main point that there is a general apathy toward violent crime in our society. However, to use that as a springboard toward anti-gun rhetoric is a bit much. Americans don't have a GOD-given right to own guns, they have a CONSTITUTIONALLY-given right. The problem is not with law-abiding citizens arming themselves for defensive and recreational purposes; it is with those who use guns to commit violent acts. Many crimes are committed with illegally obtained weapons. Legislation doesn't apply to those who don't follow it until they get caught. Those who choose to legally obtain weapons are also choosing to take responsibility for their actions with these weapons. Personally, I choose to exercise my right to carry a weapon because I know that there are violent people that I may (however unlikely) encounter in life. I will never use my gun as an aggressor, nor will 99% of other legal gun owners. Until we can rid our society of malicious intent, getting rid of guns will accomplish nothing. So let's focus on how to extract the malice rather than the guns.
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Posted by: at 12/11/07
After April 16, the nation was so impressed by the dignity and class of the students at Tech. Don't let the actions of these ignorant people undo any of that. Everyone knows the actions of these students was horrific, there is no need to point that out. Rise above it all and continue to show the nation your Hokie Spirit.
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Posted by: T Allen at 12/11/07
An apology is not the issue, here. What's alarming is the 'numbness' that so many youths of college and pre-college age seem to have regarding violence and gun violence in particular. One has no choice but to be increasingly alarmed and quite frankly frightened by the direction many seem to be headed, particularly in light of the April 16 shoothings. In the past two weeks ALONE we've had shootings at the Omaha Nebraska Mall, 2 Churches in Colorado, several 'Tech Style' plots foiled at public schools in New York State, New Jersey and Pennsylvania; not to mention the multiple booze-gun related incidents in downtown Blacksburg.
Regardless of what the aggressive, all-powerful, big money gun lobby would have you believe, Americans do NOT have a god given right to bear arms and until people step up and get 'life or death serious' about access to guns in the country it is only going to get worse. And worse.
The priorities of what our society 'values' are so skewed in the wrong direction - our preciouse guns - that unless people take to the streets and DEMAND change we will be attending the funerals of our loved ones on a daily basis.
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Posted by: at 12/11/07
I think they discovered that the 3rd picture (the long-ways shot of the guy) was not at Penn State.
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Posted by: Anonymous Coward at 12/11/07
T, I've seen four people pictured. From what I understand, two are Penn State students, one is a bartender from Ohio State, and the third is from somewhere in California. Sorry I don't know specifics.
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Posted by: T at 12/11/07
Agreed. These people do not represent Penn State as a whole. This girl went out of her way to apologize for two losers who she can't even control. Only thing I am wondering about is that everyone keeps saying these 2 people, but I've seen 3 people in the related pictures. As in 3 different people. Not like it makes much of a difference, but just wondering. And trying to get revenge will do nothing. Who cares, these idiots will face karma in the future. I mean, think about when they're applying for jobs and graduate school??
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Posted by: KR at 12/11/07
I totally agree with Jason T!
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Posted by: Anonymous Coward at 12/11/07
Well put, Jason T. On both posts.
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/10/07
Though I appreciate the sentiment, this letter is stating the obvious. I would give every PSU student the benefit of the doubt that they didn't condone this activity, unless they actually stated otherwise. Although I know we often view our schoolmates as a sort of an extended family, there is no presupposition that we are like-minded. There's not a need to publicly decry every absurd action someone makes just because they attend the same school, though from a PR standpoint, I can understand why statements were issued. Student bodies as a whole get reputations based on common threads, but until hundreds or thousands of PSU students start behaving in this way, this is an anomaly and nothing more. It's the same reason that I contend we shouldn't take to basing judgments of other schools' fanbases on one bad experience at one football game, for example.
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Posted by: Jason T at 12/10/07
To those who have replied looking for justice, what recourse do you propose? What law or policy was broken? Are we to begin regulating against poor tact? To make matters worse, the costumed students received death threats. What sort of message does that send? To those at PSU, please rest assured that none but the most narrowminded would hold a grudge against the entire Penn State community for the actions of a few students. To do so would be as ridiculous as portraying all VT students as mass murderers.
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Posted by: at 12/10/07
As a Penn State alumni I echo these sentiments, and I am truly embarrassed by the actions of these 2 students. I'm sure that, especially after the events of last April, the VT community understands that the actions of 1 or 2 deranged individuals does not represent the student body as a whole. I'M sorry if you feel the apology was not enough - the letter was written by a PSU student, not the administration. With all due respect, there's not anything she personally can do to sanction these students. I agree the University needs to do something, because such actions are despicable and unacceptable.
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Posted by: at 12/10/07
I'm sorry but by letting them continue with recourse is not supporting us. I used to believe it, but any action is stronger than a letter.
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Posted by: at 12/10/07
For some reason, I never used to like Penn State. They've become my favorite school outside of Blacksburg.
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